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February 4, 2013 at 10:56 am #990578
Over in the Palette Talk forum we have been talking about testing watercolors and Permanent Alizarin crimson has come up several times. This is an excellent point to discuss just how manufacturer’s are dealing with the known fugitive nature of the original Alizarin crimson (PR 83). Now most of them still have PR83 in their paint line up because it continues to be recommended by very good artists (for example I am just now watching a recent video by Birgit O’Conner and she is applying “Alizarin crimson” in an absolutely wonderful up close painting, is this PR 83? should I ever buy a Birgit O’Connor painting if know it is and know that the color WILL fade?).
However a number of manufacturers have seemingly provided a solution in “Permanent Alizarin Crimson”, the kicker is that they have all reached this alternative in different ways. Here are the Permanent Alizarin Crimsons I have found in a quick survey.
Dick Blick: PR 48:4 (Blick’s own pigment reference calls it “Permanent Red” but it is actually beta oxynaphtolic acid — scarlet lake which is also quite fugitive so the “Permanent” in the title is highly suspect
Holbein: PR 122 Quinacridone Magenta lightfast according to Handprint.com
M Graham: PR 264 Pyrrole Rubine, with less than excellent lightfast results in Handprint testing
Old Holland: they have taken the tactic of NOT naming a “permanent” alizarin crimson but have instead changed the colors to: PR 177 – Anthraquinone Red (which is marginally light fast according to Handprint), PV 19 – Quin Violet –i am not sure about lightfastness but likely fairly good and PBr 23 Van Dyke Brown — Disaso brown but Handprint doesn’t rate it.
Sennelier: followed Old Holland’s example and changed the chemistry rather than the name: PY 83 Diarylide Yellow – reasonably light fast, PR 179 – Perylene Maroon — excellent lightfastness according to Handprint, PR 209 – Quin Red, good lightfastness.
Sennelier also produces a Permanent Alizarin Crimson Deep, which is PR 206 Quin Maroon, good light fastness
Winson & Newton: PR 206 Quin Maroon, good lightfastness
there is no point in talking about a paint called “Permanent Alizarin Crimson” since the name means nothing chemically consistent, you have to add the Manufacturer’s name in front to provide any specific information. Of the formulations it looks like W&N, Sennelier (also with Aliz Crimson Deep) and Holbein have light fast versions with some of the others questionable.
So once again we see that the names that manufacturer’s supply are not necessarily useful but are certainly intended to try to recapture the “Alizarin Crimson” market for those who have heard about the original’s fugitive light fast nature.
BillIn response to Bill’s comments about her paintings and Alizarin Crimson here, Brigit O’Connor has asked us to post the following comment:
“I used Alizarin Crimson in the beginning of my career but now and for sometime I have only used Perm Alizarin Crimson, (if I wanted that hue). i only use non fugitive paints in my artwork.”
"The object isn't to make art, it's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable." (Robert Henri)
February 4, 2013 at 12:13 pm #1181047This is very good information Bill, it is all so confusing when trying to buy your paints, I can`t understand why the manufacturers don`t clarify all these details, surely it would improve their popularity and hence their sales.
I had an experience when I decided to try Holbein paints, I couldn`t find out the pigment codes at the time but I made sure to avoid Alizarin Crimson instead I bought Carmine! which turns out to be non other than PR 83!!
Rachel
http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/18-Feb-2013/1041532-red_potatoes_signature_photo.jpg Red Potatoes
February 4, 2013 at 12:52 pm #1181026Bill, excellent points, indicating that the marketing departments of the major paint suppliers are still locked in competitive struggle with history and one another. Unfortunately, some well known and respected painters seem to also either: 1) not be aware of fugitive pigments; 2) not care; 3) be sponsored by various paint manufacturers who supply them with free paint in return for their endorsement.
What’s a painter to do? Answer: Look at the pigment index numbers and do one’s due diligence!
Thanks for your leadership in the lightfastness world.
Sling paint,
VirgilSling paint,
Virgil Carter
http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/February 4, 2013 at 2:19 pm #1181030Big Hairy Chemist here. The reason for the difference is that although both are PR206 there’s every chance like PB15 it’s variations on a theme. Perhaps PR206:3 and PR206:9. For natural pigments there’s a natural variation , and surprisingly also in “synthetic pigments”
For Example. Irgazine® Orange is PO73 , but the pigment code is actually PO73.561170 at the moment
The next batch may have a slightly different hue and so a new code is created, hence one pigment can be more than one colour, and that’s why even with the same pigments the colours may not match between brands.
The other common variation in natural materials is isomeric differentation; which sounds horrible but it’s just the difference between your hands. They are both hands but one is left handed and one is right. They often reflect light differently and may have different properties. And finally slight variations in the positions of bits of molecules, may be different colours, like with PV19 One is Violet and one is Rose
Mostly I just enjoy the colours I like, and avoid the fugative ones.
(And if you think these discussions are mad, you should see stamp dealers arguing over the colours of British stamps after Queen Victoria I’ve no idea the difference between slightly yellow green, muted yellow green, toned yellow green and a squilliion degrees of fugative fadedness )
All the best, Leslie
February 4, 2013 at 4:22 pm #1181048…
However a number of manufacturers have seemingly provided a solution in “Permanent Alizarin Crimson”, the kicker is that they have all reached this alternative in different ways. Here are the Permanent Alizarin Crimsons I have found in a quick survey.
Dick Blick: PR 48:4 (Blick’s own pigment reference calls it “Permanent Red” but it is actually beta oxynaphtolic acid — scarlet lake which is also quite fugitive so the “Permanent” in the title is highly suspect
Holbein: PR 122 Quinacridone Magenta lightfast according to Handprint.com
M Graham: PR 264 Pyrrole Rubine, with less than excellent lightfast results in Handprint testing
Old Holland: they have taken the tactic of NOT naming a “permanent” alizarin crimson but have instead changed the colors to: PR 177 – Anthraquinone Red (which is marginally light fast according to Handprint), PV 19 – Quin Violet –i am not sure about lightfastness but likely fairly good and PBr 23 Van Dyke Brown — Disaso brown but Handprint doesn’t rate it.
Sennelier: followed Old Holland’s example and changed the chemistry rather than the name: PY 83 Diarylide Yellow – reasonably light fast, PR 179 – Perylene Maroon — excellent lightfastness according to Handprint, PR 209 – Quin Red, good lightfastness.
Sennelier also produces a Permanent Alizarin Crimson Deep, which is PR 206 Quin Maroon, good light fastness
Winson & Newton: PR 206 Quin Maroon, good lightfastness
…
BillAlso add
Daniel Smith Permanent Alizarine Crimson – PR177 (Anthraquinoid Red) + PV19 (Quinacridone Red) + PR149 (Perylene Scarlet)Art Spectrum calls theirs ‘Permanent Crimson, Alizarin Hue’, which is the clearest of all, but I don’t have a tube to find which pigments are used!
Cheers, JaneFebruary 4, 2013 at 5:37 pm #1180999…and this is the reason why we really don’t trust the Manufacturers!
My Permanent Alizarin is DaVinci (PV19)… but then… my Permanent Rose and my Quinacridone Violet are also PV19… Compared to PR83, I don’t think any of them measure up. But, I won’t use PR83, so I’m stuck with what I have.
Char --
CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci
February 4, 2013 at 6:02 pm #1181031The Alizarin Crimson I have is American Journey. It’s described as Alizarin Crimson (Quinacridone) Lightfastness II (Very Good) Staining/Transparenent, PV19 Quinacridone Violet. (That’s what is on the tube.)
Nice deep red to me.Mike
M.Vitale
February 4, 2013 at 7:29 pm #1180994I just bought Daniel Smith’s Permanent Alizarine Crimson a few weeks ago in an order I made when I needed some other colors. Looks like I can throw that tube away. I learned a while back that Indigo was fugitive and threw away my Dick Blick Indigo even though it said lightfast on the tube. Looks like pretty soon I will have a limited palette.
February 4, 2013 at 8:07 pm #1181000Harold, Daniel Smith lists their Permanent Alizarin as “Extremely Permanent”, so I don’t think I’d be pitching it just yet. I do think I’d be testing it though.
According to Handprint:
PR177 is marginally lightfast;
PV19 is rated excellent by ASTM but Bruce claims there were small shifts in colour and rates it as lightfast;
PR149 is marginally lightfast and slightly opaque…So, this combination of pigments may or may not be your best choice for a nice, permanent red.
I don’t have M. Graham’s PR264, but it’s a single pigment colour that Handprint rates as very good. The ASTM hasn’t rated it and that puts another wrinkle in the confusion.
Char --
CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci
February 4, 2013 at 9:02 pm #1181032I have an ancient tube of impermanent Alizarin Crimson from Winsor Newton and I recently bought the Permanent Alizarin version of the same brand. I think is a good match. It is slightly ligther than the old Alizarin.
Monica
February 4, 2013 at 11:12 pm #1180995Maybe Daniel Smith’s Permanent Alizarin will be in the lightfast test. I guess I will just let it sit for now. I will be looking for a replacement for it though.
Having thought about it, I think I will just avoid Alizarin altogether and thus not have to worry about it.
February 5, 2013 at 11:25 am #1181037Irishman thanks for doing those 3 swatches to compare the paints, it shows what needs to be worked on and how our choices get more difficult. But please don’t quit painting in watercolor, even the New Zealand tests where they have very high UV gives us a wide range of very lightfast paints BUT this zone of rosy to crimson is the weakest.
Stew Gold thank you for giving us the chemical details it really helps to explain how the same pigment can be so different. Is there an online source that provides that kind of detail?
Quinacridone Gold and lots of others thanks for adding other manufacturer’s and Harold I am with you, I just don’t even try to use anything with “alizarin” on it the problem is to get those fabulous pinks!!!
CharM I understand your “alizarin crimson nostalgia”, you may well also suffer from “Opera withdrawl”!
Thanks all, as Virgil says we need due diligence and I have no idea how long it will take to get the workshop teachers to start acknowledging light fast isses.
Bill"The object isn't to make art, it's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable." (Robert Henri)
February 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm #1181025Sigh, I for one love Opera and keep a tube of it, but only to play with in my sketch books so my eyes can do a happy dance once in awhile.
As for Aliz Crimson, Handprint suggests PR179 Perylene Maroon as an alternative but all brands I own read more as a dull red-brown to be a good visual match to what *I* envision as Aliz Crimson. However, by mixing in just a touch of PV19 or PR122, I can get there.
On the other hand, PV19 Aliz Crimson (Quin) seems too pinky-red compared to the traditional Aliz Crimson I see in my head. But a touch of PR179 mixed in gets closer.
The more I learn about mixing, the fewer must-have colors I seem to need in my palette.
February 5, 2013 at 3:58 pm #1181014Cariboo Bill….I hate to differ from you, but PR177 is a I-II on lightfast, and not “marginal” as Handprint states. Because I use Old Holland, which is a heavy-pigment laden paint, I do not worry about lightfastness.
Handprint has been an extremely useful tool for many years, but for many years it has been outdated. As far as paper, brushes, techniques, all that, still superlative. But VERY outdates as far as paint and manufacturers are concerned. (I’ve heard tell that he may be a bit biased about his paint choices.) Paint formulations change, and in the past seven years, they have changed a LOT. I would suggest for a reference on lightfastness, artists should look at http://www.artiscreation.com/Color%20of%20Art.html – it gives a much better view at what is lightfast and what is not.
I use two Alizarin Crimsons…Da Vinci (PV19) which is lovely for mixes..and Old Holland. Most Alizarins and Madders are not made with PR83s any longer, if you see a PR83 in any mix or as a singler pigment, run for the hills!
Margarete
When he, the Spirit of truth is come...he will be your Guide... Holy Bible (Old and New Testament)
Under the Concrete are Flowers Yet to be Born...from a Chilean PoemFebruary 5, 2013 at 4:09 pm #1181015Brindle…you are brave! I no longer have Opera in the house….removing my temptation to use that lovely color!
Have you tried Daler Rowney Quin Magenta…PR122. A lively, lively color! A wonderful color to experiment with (mixing with roses, reds, etc.). It will liven up any color, especially pinkish colors! A wonderful color to use, lightfast, and sparkling! I have two Magentas. O/H and the Daler. Also, if you are looking for a Perylene (PR179) that is not that yucky dull color that other brands seem to be: try Daler Rowney PR179 Perylene Maroon. (The Daler Rowney Artist’s brands, of course )
Margarete
When he, the Spirit of truth is come...he will be your Guide... Holy Bible (Old and New Testament)
Under the Concrete are Flowers Yet to be Born...from a Chilean Poem -
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