Home › Forums › Explore Subjects › Classical Art › Using a Grid to draw from life?
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May 5, 2004 at 5:20 am #984167
Seen this woodcut, at least it looked like a woodcut, on the cover of a book a while ago that looked like it showed an artist looking through a picture frame with a grid in it. As he was looking through the grid it looked like he was drawing on the table in front of him.
Where could I get more information on the use of grids like this?
Thank You
May 5, 2004 at 10:24 am #1030537You mean this Durer woodcut?
(I’ve always thought this looked like a medieval gynaecology clinic, before the invention of the speculum )
Note that the artist has to line his eye up precisely with the tip of the spike, in order to get it into a consistent position. (I’d be wary of dozing off and ending up a one-eyed draftsman! )
Dave
May 5, 2004 at 11:12 am #1030527I’ve seen something a bit less archaic-torture-device appearing in life drawing classes with a grid projected from an overhead projector onto the model- although how that would work from an angle is open to question. In this case, the class was quite small, the grid and work surfaces large, and the model on enough of a dias to give everyone a front-on view of sorts.
Why not just make yourself a grid in your viewfinder (2 L shapes with a layer of acetate grid-marked over them and holding them together) and use it? The less-than-perfect precision of such will force you to look even closer, always a good thing.
May 6, 2004 at 3:35 am #1030531No. This woodcut looked more like the guy was drawing behind the picture frame grid. THe frame was very close to him and his arm was behind it.
And how do you know how large to make the grids? Are they the same on the frame and the paper? There was a pastel artist who had a paper you could buy that told you how large to make the grids on paper to enlarge or reduce an image.
I just wondered how it worked. How to make one and what size and all that. I got plenty of ‘artists use grids’ stuff on the net without further explination. I don’t want to have to expirement to get it right I just need to draw up some stuff fast so I can start painting it.
Pratchett Rules.May 6, 2004 at 4:40 am #1030533don’t worry about it – just learn to draw.!!
( says she who cannot draw so good )
Seriously tho – is it cheating.?
I DO use a grid when I am trying to place things within the frame of a canvas from a photo – but I refuse to do detail on a grid – I just think that at my early stage of the game, it would be detremental to my progress regarding my drawing ability & learning to “see”.
"Art is an act of love in likeness of itself - Spirit moulding matter into lovely form:"
"His act in us for Him."
Francis Brabazon - Australian Poet.
May 6, 2004 at 12:39 pm #1030528Hi there,
Dick Blick sells an item called the Durer Grid. They have an 18″X18″ or a 40″x40″.
http://www.dickblick.com/zz556/25/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=11
They aren’t cheap, though. It seems to me that it wouldn’t be too hard to make one of these.
Happy creating,
Susan
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.
-Friedrich NietzscheMay 6, 2004 at 1:01 pm #1030532Wowy-zowy! You weren’t kidding when you said expensive. But now I have an idea of what to do.
And I can draw. I just don’t want to do that for several hours or days or whatever when I could be painting. I used to draw all the time before getting my first batch of paints. I even made action adventure comic books for a Star Wars club I had in school.
The grid is a tool to help get things done. Lots of people can try grids and get a really ugly drawing because they can’t draw. It isn’t a tool to make you draw it is a tool to get it done. And grids can be considered a learning tool as they make you really look at the parts that make up the whole and I think could be a great teaching tool. The Master’s used grids and a lot of other stuff. Good enough for me too.
May 6, 2004 at 2:26 pm #1030526Seriously tho – is it cheating.?
.I dunno is this an exam ,test, or quiz ???
my BLOG
"Don't be afraid to give up the good to go for the great" - John D. Rockefeller
"even when you win the rat race you're still a rat" - Joan CollinsMay 6, 2004 at 3:31 pm #1030534Seriously tho – is it cheating.?
You will lose points in the “degree of difficulty” category in the Art Olympics.
Seriously, real artists use whatever tools they can to make the best art they can in the most efficient manner possible. There’s no such thing as cheating. Otherwise we’d still be painting on cave walls with ochre mixed with animal fat.
David RourkeMay 7, 2004 at 5:49 pm #1030530Seen this woodcut, at least it looked like a woodcut, on the cover of a book a while ago that looked like it showed an artist looking through a picture frame with a grid in it. As he was looking through the grid it looked like he was drawing on the table in front of him.
Where could I get more information on the use of grids like this?
Grids like these were used by Leone Battista Alberti, who actually traced a scene on the glass of the window he was looking through, Albrecht Dürer, mentioned in this thread, and Vincent van Gogh. A more practical pointer is Betty Edwards’ ‘Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain’ who instructs her readers to construct a viewfinder of clear plastic to, initially, draw onto it like Alberti and, later, use it as a simple grid…
May 7, 2004 at 9:06 pm #1030535Seriously, real artists use whatever tools they can to make the best art they can in the most efficient manner possible.
Hi turlogh. I disagree with your statement. Just because it is the most efficient manner doesnt make it the most productive in terms of experience. To me, its less important to produce “the best art” than it is to gain experience from each piece.
That said, cave walls and animal-fat arent what I would select as my tools. Im a “real” artist but I wont be riding my flashy art-bike around town using hidden training wheels just because it gets me where I want to go faster.
Biki – I wouldnt call it cheating. Grids are learning tools. Just dont allow them to become a formula for creating art.
Howard Roark laughed.
Vincent -[latin]- Conqueror
Dy`nam´ic - expressing action rather than a state of being.May 16, 2004 at 8:41 pm #1030536Hi Vince,
in the end, only Art matters. If it’s “the best art”, even better. I don’t know if I approve the use of every tool. Maybe the best artist would use tools if he had to, or would make it really good without any tool, if tools were forbidden (i.e. in an art competition).
Do you agree Da Vinci was a good artist? He was. But first of all, he was a very intelligent man. We know he used tools, some of his own creations, to produce good art. There’s no cheating in Art. If it’s qualified as “Art”, it’s not cheating. The result talks for itself. A piece says the artist is good or bad, doesn’t matter what ways he used to get there. Experience, you will gain experience in every work you do. Good or bad. Now, what’s the use of all that experience, if not to produce the best art?
For me, the only bad thing is reproduction (copy). I can’t see myself copying anything from another artist, and usually I disapprove when someone goes for that. A piece of art is unique. It’s a lot more than what you see. And one who copies, can only reproduce what’s seen. It’s bad art. It’s not art at all.Excuse me, but I don’t think grids are learning tools (not cheating either). It’s not even a tool. It’s a techinique, like many others. Some prefer grid, some prefer their own reference lines, to make sure the proportions are correct. Everything around a subject is a reference. You can use it the way you think is better.
In the end, if you made a good piece of art, you just made it rightMy own opinion. You may disagree.
Cheers,
Ant
May 16, 2004 at 11:13 pm #1030529Grids cheating! LOL No more so than using the sight size method would be; how many do that? Or hold your paint brush up at arms length and slide your thumb down it to measure with on your canvas. What about a single plumb line? Did Michelangelo just start carving on a block of marble or did he have a guide? Some think that he made clay models and submersed them in water and slowly drain it as he carved what was exposed. Cheat? That sounds like a 3D grid.
Me, I say it takes an artist to trace and have it turn into anything other than a bad out line of the original. Same would hold true with the grid system, too.Sure fire way to cheat ……….. sign your name to someone else’s work.
Well, that’s my 2 cents worth.
Olan
May 17, 2004 at 2:13 am #1030525PthaloBlueGirl>>>>> And any one else that’s interested,
The system that is used in modern day ateliers and the ateliers of old was the plum-bob system. I’m not talking about plumb lines but actual plum-bobs. Read the Checking Vertical and Horizontal Relationships in this article to find out about it.
http://www.ndoylefineart.com/mechanics4.html
Also I’m afraid I agree with Vince, as a “Real” artist. There is a lot of controversy over what is considered cheating. If you study the lives of the old masters and even modern masters in depth you will find out they don’t do what some consider cheating. And a few did. But for most it was through timely in-depth study and work, work, work. There are some exceptions. For instance the Sistine Chapel that Michelangelo painted was done on paper first, then he punched holes in the outline and used smudge pots to transfer them to the ceiling. Then he painted them putting in all the details. The outlines he did this with were drawn by hand without cheating. Mainly what I am saying is this, what would you feel personally satisfied with, a painting of a photograph you traced on canvas or used a mechanical device with, or a painting that you sketched the outline and painted it using only the talent developed through long suffering hard work and persistence developed into the art of excellence? I think its up to the individual. The term artist is after all a very loose term. Let me give you another example. A lot of you have seen the beauty of food prepared by a master four or five star chef, and all have eaten food prepared by your mother or grandmother. Both are good cooks and both have excellent food. And though both are cooks it takes extensive training to be a chef. If you are happy being a cook, there’s nothing wrong with that, but to be a 4 or 5 star chef you have to have the extensive training, how be it on your own or through an institution.The same is true in art, when you rely on devices all together, you are limiting your true potential and actually halting your learning process. A plum bob is not considered one of these devices, but it’s like a compos or tracking system keeping you on track, not doing the real work for you like walking. On the other hand, some of us don’t need a compos to find our way because we have a really good sense of direction. Now if everyone will excuse me I need to get back to my cave. Miss Ocher of the month is waiting on me.There's No Shame In Trying And Failing. Only In Failing To Try ...... Self Quote (Danny Meazell)
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