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  • #984089
    Biki
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        I thought i would try painting on a smooth surface for a change, so I applied 3 coats of acrylic gesso over my pre primed canvas & sanded it down after each coat dried – with 600 grade sandpaper.

        Now I am finding that my paint is not adhering to the canvas as well as It used to.

        What is going wrong.?

        you might be able to see from this close up pic, I don’t know.

        i do paint thin – but when I try & blend, it just all separates.

        I have tried it with turps – or my middle medium – or no medium. It seems to make no difference.

        It feels Kinda waxy.

        I am wondering if I should sand it some more.?
        or oil the canvas out?
        or maybe i should gesso over the top again? – at least some of my underpainting might show thru.

        :confused: :confused: :confused:

        "Art is an act of love in likeness of itself - Spirit moulding matter into lovely form:"

        "His act in us for Him."

        Francis Brabazon - Australian Poet.

        #1028646

        Hi Biki. Well, I am no expert but I think that the problem is not enough tooth. The ‘canvas’ is too smooth. I had the same problem with a painting I started on masonite. I primed the board with three layers of acrylic gesso, I think it was Liquatex brand, sanding each. I used a one fourth nap roller. The paint started out all right then when I tried to do some dry brushing and layering the first layer started coming off. By the by I was using acrylic paint.

        I haven’t completed the painting and have not used masonite since.

        You might try to get something called illustration board if you want a really smooth surface. I do not know how it would work because I haven’t tried it myself so no first hand advice there :)

        Why did you want such a smooth surface?

        Could it be the brand of gesso?

        :D

        #1028662
        decktilldawn
        Default

            Biki, on my boug copy I am using liquitex gesso. I sanded mine between every layer with 100 grit and got it to an eggshell finishin about 5 coats. Then I layered two more coats going at a 90 degree angle against eachother. It ended up giving me a tooth similar to that of a very nice, tightly woven linen canvas. The added tooth definately helps with the brushwork, however I have never experienced the “separating” that is happening for you, even on the smoothest panels and canvases I have used.

            When you say “separate” do you mean that the brush is leaving valleys that show the canvas beneath?

            -JeremyDeck,22http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14264/14264-h/14264-h.htm
            Practice & Science Of Drawing, by Harold Speed.
            http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20165/20165-h/20165-h.htm
            Theory and Practice of Perspective, by G.A.Storey

            #1028650
            Biki
            Default

                Thanks Deck

                It looks like I should have given those final coats to give it tooth.

                I rang one of my teachers last night, and he said to finish this first layer & then leave it for two weeks. When come back to it, I should oil it out first.

                He is French tho & don’t know if he understood me correctly. So what do you think.?

                Bluegirl, I just wanted to try something different & try & paint like the big guys. :(

                "Art is an act of love in likeness of itself - Spirit moulding matter into lovely form:"

                "His act in us for Him."

                Francis Brabazon - Australian Poet.

                #1028643
                bjs0704
                Default

                    Biki – I sorry about what happened. I’ve been lucky so far, but I do know that there is an amazing difference between different brands of gesso as far as there consistancy.

                    I have bought really watery student grade gesso and I also have gesso that is as thick as a pudding. The really thick acrylic gesso more troublesome than the cheap stuff.

                    Good luck with tracking down the answer.

                    Barb Solomon :cat:

                    #1028642

                    Ok heres the problem. 600 grit is fine if your painting a car, but its wayyyyyyyy too fine for canvas. Most experts agree to sand lightly with 80 or 100 grit I think. Sand the gesso not the canvas. One thing is I watched an expert put gesso do one canvas that she is painting on right now. She did around 4 or 5 light coats. The first went up and down, The second after she had lightly sanded it went from right to left. The third up and down. She used a large 2 1/2 inch brush and put it on smooth as possible each time. Her final coat was up and down. The reason she did this was the canvas was large and heavy. To get rid of the roughness of it to make it portrait quality she did the gesso thing. She is now painting on it every day and the paint is sticking fine. You mentioned egg shell. finish, Thats exactly the kind of finish you want. You polish knife blades with 600 grit before buffing if your a knife maker.Rough it up a bit with 80 to 100 grit. Not sure after trying to apply paint if you can put more gesso on it though. :)

                    There's No Shame In Trying And Failing. Only In Failing To Try ...... Self Quote (Danny Meazell)

                    #1028638

                    Hi Biki,

                    Looking at the photo that you posted, I am wondering if you thinned your oil paint out too far? Be careful not to use too much turpentine, or OMS, as it can reduce the adhesion, by reducing the binder (ie oil).

                    I am also wondering if you have waited 24 hours for the gesso to dry, before you started to paint on the surface, with your oil paints. Remember, the gessoed surface may feel dry to the touch, after an hour or more, but it can still contain water that will take roughly 24 hours to fully evaporate. The last thing that you want is to trap even a minute amount of water under an oil film, as oil and water don’t mix. Oil will float on top of water, so if the gesso isn’t fully dry, you can experience adhesion problems, especially if your paint is thinned a great deal. Like beads forming on a car that was just waxed.

                    Looking at the photo that you posted, it looks like you still have tooth, but not being able to touch it, I can’t tell how smooth it feels. Danny is right, 600 grit sandpaper is too fine for sanding gesso. You can use it to sand raised spots on things such as glaze films, later on, but at the gessoing stage, I’d go with a larger grain, as Danny has suggested. I once sanded a gessoed board with 600 grit sand paper, and in effect polished it so smooth, that it almost felt like fine silk, almost shiny in appearance, and thin paint didn’t do well on this.

                    Jeremy’s suggestion is good as well, criss crossing the strokes, on several layers will give a slight texture. I tend to sand every other coat of gesso, on my boards, and canvas.

                    It may be that there isn’t only one problem going on, but several, at once. Compounded ie. overly thinned paint on a surface that is too smooth and non absorbant. Id like to see it in person. Please keep us updated.

                    Jim T

                    #1028651
                    Biki
                    Default

                        Thanks Jim & Danny.

                        You know the reason I used 600 grit, is because I read an article here on WC about gesso & followed the instructions. I forget who the writer was, but I think I’ll give him a slap. :D

                        Now, from waht I have gathered from the various replies – I am going to wait a couple of weeks – give it a light course sand of about 100 grit – oil it out – and try again.

                        I will indeed let you know.
                        Jim I forget how soon I started the painting after gesso – it may have been overnight, but certainly not 24 hours. I remember it did feel grainy to the touch, but after I started painting, it felt waxy. … and I was doing an underpainting so I was thinning with the turps. So yes, it could be several problems at once.

                        Thanks all for your help.

                        "Art is an act of love in likeness of itself - Spirit moulding matter into lovely form:"

                        "His act in us for Him."

                        Francis Brabazon - Australian Poet.

                        #1028647

                        Hey, check this out:
                        https://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/16809/403/

                        It is an article about how to make an eggshell finish canvas. It popped up when I was trying to get an article on how to make frames. Any good tutorials on that anywhere??

                        Hope the link helps.

                        :D

                        #1028652
                        Biki
                        Default

                            Hey, check this out:
                            [url]https://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/16809/403/[/url]

                            It is an article about how to make an eggshell finish canvas. It popped up when I was trying to get an article on how to make frames. Any good tutorials on that anywhere??

                            Hope the link helps.

                            :D

                            That’s the one I read that told me to use 600 sandpaper. :(

                            "Art is an act of love in likeness of itself - Spirit moulding matter into lovely form:"

                            "His act in us for Him."

                            Francis Brabazon - Australian Poet.

                            #1028648

                            Bummer! Sorry. Thought I’d be helpful. Have you thought about PMing the author of the article?

                            Post here if you get it working. Be interested to know how and why. I like texture on canvas.

                            :D

                            #1028649

                            Just thought of something: would portrait finish be the same as eggshell? You can buy portrait grade canvas at http://www.dickblick.com then you don’t have to worry about trying to make it yourself. Just an idea.

                            :D

                            #1028663
                            chandlerjr
                            Default

                                Biki,
                                Danny is correct–you used to fine of a sand paper. However, this is what I do that was taught to me by a pro portrait artist. Apply 3 coats of Acrylic gesso before sanding. Apply each coat at right angles to each other. Sand the 3rd coat. Then apply a very thin 4th coat with a 1 inch water color brush, but do not sand any more. It will be very smooth, plus have good tooth.

                                I only paint on smooth canvas surfaces. This is why I have gravitated to Gamblin Alkyd Medium. It is pure Alkyd and provides great adhesion for the paint especially if painting thinly. Plus if you make a mistake, scrape that part off the best you can (just knock down the brush strokes), apply a thin layer of Alkyd, and fix your mistake.

                                Hope this helps!
                                Larry C.

                                "For the essence of a work of art is, after all, that it cuts out a piece of the endlessly continuous sequences of perceived experience, detaching it from all connections with one side or the other, giving it a self-sufficient form as though defined and held together by an inner core." Georg Simmel

                                #1028639

                                Biki,

                                One other thing that I forgot to mention, and was briefly described in the article posted by PthaloBlueGirl, is wetsanding. When I sand my boards, I use 100-150 grit sandpaper, and I will run the water in the sink, and wet the sandpaper, and then sand every other layer of gessoed board, with this wet sandpaper, in circular strokes. This will form a slurry, and I keep rinsing out the sandpaper, and progressing. I will then rinse the board, dry the surface, with paper towels, and apply another layer of gesso, and then another. After this, back to the sink and more wet sanding, in the same manner. I repeat this time and again, until the surface is just right. I might add that if you are going to wetsand, make sure that the front, back and sides, are fully coated with gesso, before you begin, so that the water doesn’t soak into and thus warp the board. I usually apply 5 layers to front/back and sides, before I begin wetsanding. The wetsanding will provide a marvelous surface, and will also prevent the sandpaper fron “clogging”.

                                Jim

                                #1028658
                                JanetteBC
                                Default

                                    hey Biki
                                    in March I did some crackling finishes and that appears to be what is happening here.
                                    it may do you some good to look up crackling under faux finishes to see if there is any info as what causes the effect when it is done on purpose.
                                    I am tending to think that the raised texture of the crackling medium is where it seperates and lays in the receded texture which is what I am seeing here.
                                    hope that is of some use to you and good luck.

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