Titanium White – Winsor & Newton Artist Oils – WARNING: SOLVENT

[RomanB]

The WC forum has partners that sell these products. The forum makes it’s viable living by being funded by these partners (Blick etc.)

Hosting of a forum costs a few dollars per month.

[Marc Kingsland]

I don’t know if it’s related to this issue, but I’ve just noticed that Blick refuse to ship Winsor and Newton; Titanium white, Zinc white, and Underpainting white, overseas. :confused:
Their Flake white Hue can be shipped though. Which is interesting. I need to look at all their other brands for sale.

insert pithy comment here.

[Marc Kingsland]

Blick also has an overseas shipping ban on Williamsburg flake white linseed but not flake white safflower, Sennelier whites, Rembrandt whites, Old Holland whites, except the lead ones, Michael hardings lead whites and lead colours, but not their NON lead whites(?) Maimeri Puro Zinc white but not Titanium white, Maimeri Artisti Super rapid, Titanium white and Zinc white, but not super white, Blockx Flake, Zinc whites, but not Titanium whites. And Blick’s own whites, plus some, but not all Blick cadmiums.

Where’s that confused smilely face again? Oh there it is :confused:

insert pithy comment here.

[Pinguino]

Regarding the above posts, which show the confusion surrounding what can be shipped or not shipped where: Yikes!

Possibility 1: Sheer silliness.

Possibility 2: Some products contain a tiny amount of a substance with flash point low enough to be banned on airplanes. Actual danger is not the issue.

Possibility 3: The ban (or lack thereof) is due to labels on the tubes rather than data sheets. Newer tubes may contain a cautionary notice that older tubes don’t have, and this may happen to coincide with the specific color. If this is true, then over a short period of time the various colors will fall into line.

[WFMartin]

Walnut Alkyd by Graham and Solvent Free Alkyd by Gamblin both have no petroleum solvents.
Since Winsor Newton is on trial here I might as well testify too with some pure speculation.
I think someone in the witch hunt wants to incriminate Winsor Newton with accusations of alkyd lacing and get them burned at the stake!

Nope. If I were trying to incriminate W & N for anything it would not be for sneaking an alkyd into their paint–it would be for not indicating their ingredients on their labels, for several of their products. For example, how often has anyone seen the ingredients listed on a Liquin bottle, other than “contains petroleum distillates”?

‘Tis THAT of which I accuse W & N, and some other manufacturers, for that matter. I once received a sample of Gamblin’s Fast Matte White, whose label gave me NO indication that it was an alkyd paint. It was only through smelling it, and noticing how fast it became unusable on my palette, that I determined it to be an alkyd product.

And, I’m one who totally believes that “smelling” is a rather accurate, and quick way to determine many ingredients in oil paint, and its related products.

Nobody needs to burn Winsor & Newton at the stake; they are perfectly capable of committing suicide on their own, if their products should take them in that direction. On forums such as this, I don’t feel that it is inappropriate for anyone to point out advantages, and disadvantages of any product, offering not only facts, but opinions, based upon experience, as well. My gosh, that is what these types of forums are for, as far as I am aware.

One needs to pick and choose their products based upon their needs, and the quality of certain manufacturers specific products. For example, although I am totally sold on Gamblin’s GamVar Varnish, I wouldn’t touch their Galkyd with a 10-foot mahl stick. Plus, they put that unmarked sample of Fast Matte White in my hands, with no indication that it was an alkyd paint, as I had mentioned. I didn’t care for that much, either.:) . That doesn’t mean I want to burn ’em at the stake; it just means that I often point out which products of theirs I like, and which ones I don’t. I’m not asking anyone else to agree with me. When a manufacturer finally arrives at a point at which they begin to give the impression that they can’t be trusted anymore, then I merely quit using all their products.

And, when that moment arrives, I most certainly want to feel welcome to share such a feeling, and reasons, with other interested artists on this forum.

wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

[Anonymous]

Hosting of a forum costs a few dollars per month.

maybe you could help out with a donation, the forum owners have filed bankruptcy and put the forum up for sale.

[Anonymous]

If it were possible to create an alkyd medium with an odorless form of mineral spirits, I’m sure they would do it, but I have not experienced an alkyd medium yet that does not smell of mineral spirits, quite noticeably. Therefore, I totally believe that W & N has probably added a bit of alkyd to the paint, for whatever reason, and known only to them.:)

Do you know about these alkyd mediums?
Walnut Alkyd has been around for many years, Gamblin’s Solvent Free Alkyd Gel has been available for a few years now. They contain not only no odorless spirts, they contain no petroleum solvents at all.
What you are saying about alkyd mediums is just not the truth.
Solvents are added to alkyd resin to make it flow, but these alkyds do not use solvents.

On forums such as this, I don’t feel that it is inappropriate for anyone to point out advantages, and disadvantages of any product, offering not only facts, but opinions

Regarding online defamation, there is always a line that can be crossed, I can only recommend and advise looking into the case histories and liabilities involved in online defamation. This isn’t just about alkyds.
Just as you would have some raised hackles if someone repeatedly claimed that your medium must contain some type of drier that you don’t want anyone to know about, claiming that a company like WN is deliberately doping and adulterating and deliberately lying about it, is not something that this forum encourages our members to do.
There is nothing wrong with inquiring about alkyds or solvents being added, but there is something wrong with assuming that they must be doping, building the case that there is substantial evidence for doping being present, merely from a “smell”, and then accusing and/or implying that they are doing it on purpose to fool everyone.

Therefore, I totally believe that W & N has probably added a bit of alkyd to the paint, for whatever reason

[Michael Lion]

If I were trying to incriminate W & N for anything it would not be for sneaking an alkyd into their paint–it would be for not indicating their ingredients on their labels, for several of their products.

There is, for all practical purposes, no major art supplies manufacturer that tells you what’s in their paints or other other products.

The exception may be some boutique manufacturers.

[Richard P]

There is nothing wrong with inquiring about alkyds or solvents being added, but there is something wrong with assuming that they must be doping, building the case that there is substantial evidence for doping being present, merely from a “smell”, and then accusing and/or implying that they are doing it on purpose to fool everyone.

I posted my emails to W&N and their replies and you can see that they said that “The W&N Artists Oil Paints do contain trace amount of mineral solvent in the formulation, with the total VOC content of the paint is >0.01%. The safflower oil base used in the Titanium White paint is differs to the other colours to prevent a impact on the colour. This could be what accounts for the difference in smell as the oil can be quite strong to someone who has a sensitive nose. The oil base is listed on the product label.”

However as I said in my reply this doesn’t explain why the smell is not in all their safflower oil based paints in the W&N Artists range:

“However I am still confused. Are you saying that all the colours in the W&N Artist oil paints contain a small amount of mineral solvent? I am only smelling this solvent in the Titanium White, not in any other W&N paints. I also have other W&N colours in Safflower oil: Bismuth Yellow, Cadmium Yellow Pale and Naples Yellow Deep and none of those smell of solvent.”

Since then I have given them the batch number of the paint and am waiting to see if they reply back.

So, it’s not that they have said no, they haven’t explained why there is this smell in the Titanium White that is not in their other products. And why this odour seems to be the same as a solvent.

I think all artists have the right to enquire about the products they use if they have any health and safety concerns. I just don’t think at this point their answers have addressed my questions.

[Richard P]

I’m also going to post a conversation I had with Jacksons about a Sennelier oil; paint which might show why this is something I am wary of:

“Hello Richard,
We spoke last week about the Sennelier Van Dyke Brown deep which has a solvent-y smell. I’m just writing to say that I haven’t forgotten about your query! Here in the office we can’t agree why this might be, so I have contacted Sennelier directly about it, also asking them whether it is a solvent which requires ventilation for safe use. When they get back to me I will pass the information on to you. I’m also interested to know the answer… we think it might be something to do with the quality of the pigment that is used, and that something might be added to keep the texture consistent across the range. But we’ll find out soon I’m sure.*

Kind Regards
Evie”

“Hi Evie,

Thanks for getting back to me!

I suspected you’d have to ask Sennelier directly and I was going to chase this up tomorrow to see if they’d replied yet.

Hopefully they will be able to respond soon, especially about the solvent and ventilation issue. Incidentally if it does have solvent in it I thought it would be required to have a health and safety label on the tube in the same way solvents do?

Thank you,
Richard*”

“Good morning Richard,

I’ve just been on the phone to our Sennelier suppliers, who then spoke to Sennelier and got back to me. They have advised that we should return our stock, because that colour should not smell any different to the others. They are going to test it for us.*
So it appears that there is probably a fault with the paint! We’re very grateful that you brought this to our attention. I will put our Freepost returns address at the bottom of this email so you can return your tube back to us. I can either refund you or send you another colour as a replacement.

I’m sorry this has taken so long to establish- Who knew that Sennelier were so elusive…*

Kind Regards,
Evie”

“Good afternoon Richard,
I thought I’d let you know the results after the Van Dyke Brown Deep was tested- apparently the paint is ok! It contains extra turps because the pigment used in that paint is very fine.
I assume that you might not want to reorder it- as I believe that the solvent content is a concern for you. After comparing the pigments in the two paints, I’d recommend adding lamp black to the Van Dyke Brown to get a similar colour.*

I hope this is helpful!
Kind Regards,
Evie”

“Thanks Evie,

That’s interesting.. you said extra turps, but there shouldn’t be any turps in tubed oil paints..? It doesn’t sound right to me, but if that’s what they say then I suppose that’s by design even though I don’t understand it.
Yes, I will add lamp black or mars black to the brown instead of reordering

Thanks,
Richard”

“Yes I thought it was strange too, I’d never come across it before. Apparently it’s not common, but some brands do add solvent to their pigments to keep the paint consistent across their range. I didn’t know this- but I’ve learnt something new anyway!

Kind Regards,
Evie”

In case it wasn’t clear there was no information about a solvent on the Sennelier tube or their website and the smell was much stronger than in this case.

[Anonymous]

I think all artists have the right to enquire about the products they use if they have any health and safety concerns. I just don’t think [U]at this point[/U] their answers have addressed my questions.

Yes I agree

[Marc Kingsland]

Just had a five minute type in chat with a Tech advisor at Blick. And they confirmed that all the paints I/they listed above as been unsafe to airship internationally do almost certainly contain a very small amount of solvent or volatile flammable addition, (alkyd was never mentioned) And that their Blick oil paint whites and some of their cadmium range, a very small fraction of solvent though it might be, most definitely do. And they believe that solvent content is the main or sole cause of the unsafe for shipping listing in the other ranges.

It’s not beyond the possibility of of some of them containing a small amount of alkyd, but it seems to be more likely to be just solvent.

insert pithy comment here.

[Marc Kingsland]

I wonder if some of the best oils for whites might also be a little on the thicker side, and so whites being more visually apparent to yellowing, they might wish to thin the oil down to make more fluid. Less oil, or thinner oil pigment coating, less yellowing. Williamsburg Flake white in less yellowing safflower oil is safe to ship internationally but not their Flake in more yellow linseed.

insert pithy comment here.

[Richard P]

Oh, that’s interesting! Did they mention W&N Artist Titanium White?

[Marc Kingsland]

Oh, that’s interesting! Did they mention W&N Artist Titanium White?

It’s one of their banned from over seas shipping oil paints and included in the ‘almost certainly containing small amount of solvent’ I didn’t ask about the W&N Artist Titanium white specifically because they either don’t know precisely and have possibly only been supplied with the information that it contains a flammable volatile. Or they do know, but I didn’t want to place them on the spot as to whether the manufacturer would be happy about Blick releasing proprietary information. So I asked them about the content regarding same shipping ban of their own oil painting whites and whether the other banned whites were likely to be solely for the same reason.

insert pithy comment here.

[Author]

Posts