Home Forums Explore Media Pen and Ink Pen and Paper Only, No Pencils, Rulers, or Projection Machines, Need Apply

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  • #991031
    Uath
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        To me, the beauty of pen and ink comes from the fact that once you make a mark, it’s there. You can’t erase a pen. It’s like life, if you make a mistake, you can either cover it up, live with it, or just trash everything and start over. Enough of tracing photographs, Let’s see what people can do when they throw away their pencils and start drawing directly with their pen.

        I think there needs to be a continuing thread for traditional pen and ink artists to post their work. By traditional, I really mean free-hand artists, ones who don’t use pencils, erasers, rulers, cameras, photo copiers, projection machines, etc… Just pen and paper please (or brushes and ink wash, you know what I mean).

        Style is only limited to the imagination. The type of pen you use is up to you, just as long as it isn’t a pencil.

        Let me start things. Most of you know who I am. I’ve been a stead-fast advocate of not using pencils all my career. I’m SO looking forward to seeing how many others share my passion.

        Here are some of my favorites from the last couple of months:

        Oh, I use a Uniball Vision Elite Pen Bold (.8) and Startthmore 11X14″ Bristol Smooth Paper.

        #1189780
        Shanec
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            I hear you, I’m far too impatient to use pencils and the rest and can’t fathom spending more than a few weeks on a drawing. I often make mistakes and change the drawing to suit.

            However my imagination doesn’t lend itself to freehand drawing, the type you indulge in and have perfected and I personally have to rely on photos like a lot of artists, however I prefer not for a photo-realistic impression and try to use my own style and develop that in conjunction with drawing an image.

            I’ve only been a member for about a year now but have noticed that the monthly featured artists and paintings are almost always photo-realistic.

            Here are a few recent sketches on the train, 15 minutes each.

            Shane

            https://artbyshanec.com

            #1189768
            Uath
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                I love them. Don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with using a photo for reference, just LOOK at it though. I’m afraid a LOT of people project images and trace them with pencil.

                I guess it would always be better to use photos you’ve taken yourself. There have been times though, like if you want to draw a hippo, you need to know what a hippo looks like.

                #1189766
                Blah
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                    Uath…I very much like your work and I admire your ability to create them without the benefit of any pencil pre-drawing.

                    I am not averse to using a pencil sketch to compose my drawing and mark out the main forms and massings. But I also enjoy sketching directly with a pen and I do that too quite often.

                    Here is one such sketch which I did for the May 2013 Pen & Ink Project. It is based on Dewi’s photograph Scarlet Macaw and was done with a Hero 578 fountain pen.

                    #1189789
                    Batman55
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                        There’s an interesting debate to be found on this point. One question is, to what extent does an artist have to use visual aids (or tools such as rulers) before the work loses artistic value or the artist is “cheating”?

                        The other problem here is the question of innate skill; while it’s true many artistic skills can be learned or improved, some people (as myself) will still have marked deficiences in the area of 3d space, anatomy, and perspective. I have a theory that those who have strong spatial skills to begin with can essentially approximate 3d space without having to pre-draw or even use photographs. Such a person could draw from imagination easier; while others, without preparation, are lost in the woods. For instance if I want to draw something from my mind’s eye, it will not have depth.

                        The point is that extensive preparation for an “actual piece” can somewhat bridge the gaps caused by a difficulty in using space or perspective.

                        #1189769
                        Uath
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                            Blah, that is incredible!!!!

                            Cheating is a strong word. What if someone takes a photo, projects it on a piece of paper, traces it with a pencil, fills in all the details with a pencil, then inks over it and erases the lines. Is it art??

                            Sure it is, but it isn’t pen and ink. It’s graphic art.

                            Realism isn’t “Bad” neither is using a photo for reference. Shoot everything’s OK. It’s not like your killing someone.
                            Still… TRACING??? Come on!

                            I’m afraid a lot of hyper-realistic “Pen and Ink” pieces are almost completely drawn with a pencil and then inked over. That’s not pen and ink. That’s enhanced pencil technique.

                            #1189782
                            dminor
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                                Uath, Toowoomba and Blah are some of my favourite artists here and I almost feel I shouldn’t put my stuff in the same thread, but here are a few I’ve done, on 3×5 index cards. I started doing these little drawings because I felt my work was too stiff and lifeless and I was hoping working directly in ink would help me loosen up.

                                The tree was done with a Pentel brushpen, the others with a Uniball Vision. I looked at photos to help with the tree and boat, but tried to not follow them too closely.

                                One piece of advice I’ve read about using photo references (I think it was in an interview with Frank Santoro) is to draw from the photo into a sketchbook, and then draw from the sketchbook version when making your final drawing, as a way of making it more your own.

                                I don’t enjoy drawing from photos, but for the most part, I draw at night after my kids are in bed, which definitely limits what subjects are available to draw from life. Part of why I like Uath’s work so much is that I’m very interested in finding forms of drawing that don’t require much use of photos or live subjects.

                                Drawing in pencil first makes mistakes less likely, but can also remove a lot of the freshness and life from a drawing. I liked this post by cartoonist Richard Thompson where he talks about using a lightbox to go from a rough drawing to ink and watercolour as a way of preserving the looseness of the roughs in the final drawing: http://richardspooralmanac.blogspot.ca/2013/04/the-lost-unintentional-adventures-of.html. Some cartoonists will draw directly in ink and then use white paint to cover mistakes, which is the luxury of drawing something to be reproduced rather than as a piece of original art.

                                When I first started reading this forum I ran across some of Uath’s earlier posts on using just pen and ink and I think he makes a good point. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say using a pencil to create a rough sketch before starting means that a work is no longer “pen and ink”, but I definitely agree that working directly in ink is a great way of increasing drawing skill and creativity. I hope to rely on using pencil less and less in the future.

                                #1189763
                                DSPIT
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                                    I saw a very similar debate/discussion happen in the digital painting/art forum that they ended up splitting up the forum into two, and a lot of them might not agree and probably were not even there at the time the debate happened, but in general, it was not a benefit, and a lot of the better digital artist left. Dont go there myself much any more.

                                    I dont think there is anything wrong by wanting to have a thread like you have started, thats all personal choice. I would just say, be careful it doesnt spill over to what I saw in that digital forums.

                                    The only thing that surprises me anymore, is that I can still be surprised:D

                                    #1189770
                                    Uath
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                                        Dminor, I think these drawings are FULL of life and I love your idea of drawing from a drawing!

                                        DSPIT

                                        We’re not really arguing about style, or anything like that. I think you’ll agree that the photo-realism people have come to represent pen and ink. They are held as examples of the BEST of what we do. I’m just afraid that they trace and use all sorts of projections. IMHO, that’s not cool.

                                        Once you use a pencil, you lose all credibility. Once you trace anything, you might as well be a copy machine. Blah did a great realistic job on the parrot without a pencil.

                                        Photo-realistic P&I people will all try to minimize their use of a pencil, but the fact is that the entire piece is drawn with pencil and then highlighted with pen. That’s NOT drawing with a pen.
                                        I’m going to go out on a limb and say that most of them project photos and then trace them. It is personal choice, but is that what we choose to REPRESENT P&I?
                                        At the very least, they use a grid to reproduce the photo.

                                        If we take away the pencil (just for this thread) we take away all the opportunity to “Cheat”

                                        #1189783
                                        RKD1234
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                                            free hand drawing is the only way – projectors are cheats IMHO

                                            #1189790
                                            Batman55
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                                                Some strong words… I suppose some of you have a blunt style of expressing opinions and that always takes getting used to, but it’s also the very same style that can pave the way for flaming. As the other poster said, I hope this thread doesn’t end up like that.

                                                I think the ideal is to use the pencil less and less, most pen and inkers would agree to that. When you pre-plan a drawing on the same sheet as the finished copy, you do lose some of the joy and spontaneity, and the work can end up a little stiff. But if you see pen-and-ink as a kind of painting, in the sense that it has aesthetic value that can be appreciated without some kind of meaningful story or actions depicted (as in cartooning).. then, you need to take your time and get it right. I would think a lot of painters put some marks on their canvas beforehand; at the very least, preparatory studies are common.

                                                As far as calling any kind of tracing cheating–I can see why many folks would believe this. But I don’t think it’s such a big deal if you just use it to get things in the right place. I think if you use tracing for more than getting the perspective correct, that might cross the line.

                                                Some might not have an imagination that translates easily onto paper. Other people just don’t have a knack for using space, and still others might not be quick enough to learn perspective and interpret a complex 3d drawing properly onto the final sheet. Does that mean such a person should quit drawing because they don’t meet certain standards of proficiency? Quite simply, no. Not everyone has the time or patience to force orthodoxy on themselves, even if it might be the ideal.

                                                #1189767
                                                valchina612
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                                                    I really don’t think there would be too many who post in this forum who would go to the trouble of projecting their image to draw it exactly. A lot of people enjoy sketching with a pencil, and then inking if they like what they have achieved with their sketch. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this.

                                                    This forum is for Pen and Ink Artists to enjoy their art and have fun doing it in their chosen way. If an Artist prefers to only use ink for the entire drawing, then that is fine and good for them, but if some ink artists prefer to use a few guidelines with pencil, well then, great for them too.

                                                    This is a forum for EVERYONE, not just anyone who thinks it should be just a one-way street.

                                                    Enjoy your inking everyone — we love you all!!

                                                    Val. :clap:

                                                    #1189781
                                                    Shanec
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                                                        Well said Val, your words are as always encouraging, it’s all about having fun really, as long you’re doing that while you’re drawing then who really cares what tools or techniques you use.

                                                        Shane

                                                        https://artbyshanec.com

                                                        #1189771
                                                        Uath
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                                                            May I remind everyone that this post was intended as a place to post drawings.

                                                            No flaming, not at all. Using a pencil to make a drawing and then inking over it has become the accepted standard for P&I. Not only that, it has become the “Bar” we all have set for us… WRONG.

                                                            I’m sorry, tracing isn’t a tool, it’s tracing. Go to a 5th grade classroom and watch one kid show another kid his too-lifelike drawing. “You didn’t draw that,” laughs the other. “You traced it.” Simple logic, unthinkingly stating the obvious.

                                                            Val, I know you’re mad at me for this and I know you hated it the last time I did it. The fact is, I’m not giving up. Sometimes, all people see here are inked-over pencil drawings, most of them VERY good. I’m letting them know there is another way.

                                                            Drawing with a pencil is 200% different than drawing with a pen. They are not the same and skill with one does NOT imply skill wtih the other.

                                                            #1189764
                                                            DSPIT
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                                                                I didnt feel I was arguing, just stating that I have seen this kind of thing get out of hand (not that Val would let that happen lol), and wouldnt want to see the same. to that point, Exactly Val, and the ONLY reason I mentioned it is, this is how that started in that other forum. but I think that particular forum lends itself to a wider array of interpretation, therefore it went much deeper. but Uath, calling any other persons idea of media use “wrong”, I dont think is a fair statement.

                                                                As I also stated, I think if one believes like Uath does, certainly entitled to that opinion, and additionally, has the right to start a thread for just that opinion. I think thats what makes this great. As long as it doesnt bleed past that thread.

                                                                sorry if Im throwin a monkey wrench, not intended. I have been doing pen and inks a long time. even though this group doesnt know me that well, I used to be here a lot. I love coming here all the time and seeing the many different interpretations and styles and liquid media mixes. I would hate to see any of them become not included for any reason. now thats my opinion and Im allowed to have that to :wink2:

                                                                and I would add, and I am very experienced at this and I hear the specific notes about tools. For example, using drafting tools say, to create a specific type of line, even if penciled first, takes a great a deal of practice and focus. including line widths, curves, how they attach to whatever. and the shading that will follow, this does not make the art, any less art. It shows a significant amount of desire to practice a skill to get it to that point. to call it lesser,,,is a little bit offensive to me. but thats just me.

                                                                The only thing that surprises me anymore, is that I can still be surprised:D

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