Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Naples yellow vs. Yellow ochre

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  • #994124
    Artist1987
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        Hi

        Can someone specify the difference between naples yellow and Yellow Ochre?
        http://www.dickblick.com/items/00473-8433/#colorswatch

        On this Swatch they Look similiar.
        Would you buy the Color or mix it from Lemon Yellow and white ( there will still be some difference to the real thing, i know).

        I also know that old Masters used it a lot in Skin Tones. Would Yellow Ochre be able to Substitute that on the palette?
        Thanks

        #1252176
        savras
        Default

            The most apparent difference is of course color

            Naples Yellow Light

            Naples Yellow Dark

            Yellow Ochre

            * Depicted paints are less brighter in reality.

            Naples Yellow due to toxicity (lead content) is hardly available nowadays. Genuine one is offered by Michael Harding but probably there are other brands that offer it.

            Naples Yellow offered by most brands is a convenience mixture that more ore less successfuly replicates color of genuine paint.

            So other differences with Yellow Ochre are price and toxicity. NY being toxic and among the most expensive paints available. YO on contrary being non toxic and among the cheapest.

            Also NY is opaque and YO may vary from semi-transparent to opaque depending on pigment used (natural or synthetic earth or mixture of both).

            #1252183
            Pinguino
            Default

                You seem to have done your research, so I have nothing to add, except one thing: Also have a look at a pigment called “transparent earth yellow” (its name may differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.) In essence, it is somewhat more transparent than yellow ochre, so it has different properties when mixed with other colors.

                I’m not saying that this pigment would be better or worse for your purpose, only that you might want to consider it.

                #1252178
                Artist1987
                Default

                    The most apparent difference is of course color

                    Naples Yellow Light

                    [IMG]http://www.dick-blick.com/items/015/97/swatches/01597_GenuineNaplesYlwLt-l.jpg[/IMG]

                    Naples Yellow Dark

                    [IMG]http://www.dick-blick.com/items/015/97/swatches/01597_GenuineNaplesYlwDk-l.jpg[/IMG]

                    Yellow Ochre

                    [IMG]http://www.dick-blick.com/items/015/97/swatches/01597_YellowOchre-l.jpg[/IMG]

                    * Depicted paints are less brighter in reality.

                    Naples Yellow due to toxicity (lead content) is hardly available nowadays. Genuine one is offered by Michael Harding but probably there are other brands that offer it.

                    Naples Yellow offered by most brands is a convenience mixture that more ore less successfuly replicates color of genuine paint.

                    So other differences with Yellow Ochre are price and toxicity. NY being toxic and among the most expensive paints available. YO on contrary being non toxic and among the cheapest.

                    Also NY is opaque and YO may vary from semi-transparent to opaque depending on pigment used (natural or synthetic earth or mixture of both).

                    Did you Write that depicted colors are less bright ? I have Never noticed it on blick’ s Homepage.

                    #1252177
                    savras
                    Default

                        Did you Write that depicted colors are less bright ? I have Never noticed it on blick’ s Homepage.

                        Yes, that is my experiance. For example some yellows on DickBlick’s swatches are so bright that may hurt eyes (maybe I’m exaggerating a bit).

                        #1252171
                        WFMartin
                        Default

                            Different brands of Naples Yellow, like different brands of Yellow Ochre bounce all over the place, in terms of their colors. It’s pretty much a roll of the dice what actual color you are going to squeeze out on your palette when you open a different brand of either of those two colors.

                            However, there are a few basic differences between most Naples Yellows, and Yellow Ochres. Yellow Ochre is primarily Naples Yellow, with a bit more of the primary colors, Cyan, and Magenta (graying component colors) to “dirty” it.

                            When mixing Yellow Ochre, you may need to start with a primary, Transparent Yellow, also, because Yellow Ochre probably requires a bit LESS White, than Naples Yellow. Since you cannot remove white from an existing paint (Naples Yellow), you must begin with a Yellow that has no White to begin with.

                            Cyan: Thalo Blue (PV15)
                            Magenta: Thalo Red Rose (PV19)

                            wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                            https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                            #1252179
                            Artist1987
                            Default

                                Different brands of Naples Yellow, like different brands of Yellow Ochre bounce all over the place, in terms of their colors. It’s pretty much a roll of the dice what actual color you are going to squeeze out on your palette when you open a different brand of either of those two colors.

                                However, there are a few basic differences between most Naples Yellows, and Yellow Ochres. Yellow Ochre is primarily Naples Yellow, with a bit more of the primary colors, Cyan, and Magenta (graying component colors) to “dirty” it.

                                When mixing Yellow Ochre, you may need to start with a primary, Transparent Yellow, also, because Yellow Ochre probably requires a bit LESS White, than Naples Yellow. Since you cannot remove white from an existing paint (Naples Yellow), you must begin with a Yellow that has no White to begin with.

                                Cyan: Thalo Blue (PV15)
                                Magenta: Thalo Red Rose (PV19)

                                Thanks to everybody.
                                I actually thought about modifying a imperfect raw umber with naples yellow or yellow ochre and a bit of raw sienna and white of course to give it a bit more of a “yellowish”-“golden” bias.
                                Rather subtle :).
                                I did not consider mixing yellow ochre completely anew since i am content with my present version. Phatoblue is interesting as a mixing-agent. I expected the mix to become too greenish in mixing in ThaloBlue.

                                #1252172
                                WFMartin
                                Default

                                    Thanks to everybody.
                                    I actually thought about modifying a imperfect raw umber with naples yellow or yellow ochre and a bit of raw sienna and white of course to give it a bit more of a “yellowish”-“golden” bias.
                                    Rather subtle :).
                                    I did not consider mixing yellow ochre completely anew since i am content with my present version. Phatoblue is interesting as a mixing-agent. I expected the mix to become too greenish in mixing in ThaloBlue.

                                    Well (Thalo Blue)……..You don’t use a ton of it,….you use a pin-point of it!:thumbsup:

                                    However, your idea of “doping down” Raw Sienna is a very good approach. That did not occur to me. Yellow Ochre basically is Raw Sienna with a little more White, and a little more Yellow. That would probably work, and you would not experience the overtones (if any) that are likely to be introduced to the mix with Thalo Blue, and Thalo Red Rose.

                                    wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                    https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                    #1252180
                                    Artist1987
                                    Default

                                        Well (Thalo Blue)……..You don’t use a ton of it,….you use a pin-point of it!:thumbsup:

                                        However, your idea of “doping down” Raw Sienna is a very good approach. That did not occur to me. Yellow Ochre basically is Raw Sienna with a little more White, and a little more Yellow. That would probably work, and you would not experience the overtones (if any) that are likely to be introduced to the mix with Thalo Blue, and Thalo Red Rose.

                                        i then wanted to use a darker and more golden (through raw sienna+white) naples yellow to modify a too slightly greyed tint of raw umber.

                                        Some of the subtleties of yellow ochre (of some manufacturers- and i have chepa Lukas acrylic here) get lost when mixing it from raw sienna ,though.
                                        However, Lukas´s raw sienna is way too orange.
                                        I am currently waiting on a delivery of a muted brownish raw sienna from a German house-brand.
                                        (it is actually quite good).

                                        #1252173
                                        WFMartin
                                        Default

                                            Just please realize that all these colors (Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, Raw Sienna) are nothing more nor less than a modified, primary Yellow, such as Cad Yellow Light, or Transparent Yellow (PY128), with varying amounts of the other two primary colors, Cyan and Magenta (and White), to either warm it, cool it, or gray it.

                                            You can literally “make” Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, or Raw Sienna with those colors (and White). Now, ….your mixes likely will not behave the same as the single pigment paints when mixed with other colors, because of the overtones introduced by the “ingredient colors” within the mixture, but you can nearly duplicate those colors in their masstones with mixtures of your own doing.

                                            And you can easily accommodate for the overtones. (Overtones are those hue shifts to any color, when mixing it with White. For example, Cad Orange becomes Redder when mixed with White …..Instead of merely becoming a light orange, it becomes pink..)

                                            wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                            https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                            #1252181
                                            Artist1987
                                            Default

                                                Just please realize that all these colors (Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, Raw Sienna) are nothing more nor less than a modified, primary Yellow, such as Cad Yellow Light, or Transparent Yellow (PY128), with varying amounts of the other two primary colors, Cyan and Magenta (and White), to either warm it, cool it, or gray it.

                                                You can literally “make” Naples Yellow, Yellow Ochre, or Raw Sienna with those colors (and White). Now, ….your mixes likely will not behave the same as the single pigment paints when mixed with other colors, because of the overtones introduced by the “ingredient colors” within the mixture, but you can nearly duplicate those colors in their masstones with mixtures of your own doing.

                                                And you can easily accommodate for the overtones. (Overtones are those hue shifts to any color, when mixing it with White. For example, Cad Orange becomes Redder when mixed with White …..Instead of merely becoming a light orange, it becomes pink..)

                                                It is not that easy to me. Naples Yellow – Maybe depending on the manufacturers. I am uncertain if Most just add white to their Lemon Yellow. But raw sienna would be a bit of a Problem because i want a rather subtle Brown Shift.in your wording : the overtones just Produce too much statistical Noise so that i Hardly end up with the Color premixed by the manufacturer ( in some Cases ; i do not own Green either)
                                                I mean, in the end,you could probably mix almost all colors out of there. However ,if you Need various tries, like me, it Can get annoying.

                                                Do you mix Most colors yourself?

                                                #1252182
                                                Artist1987
                                                Default

                                                    A bit of a Range of bought colors Seems to make Mixing easier ( for me) since i Can Change some subtleties in Skin Tones more easily.example: My Problem to modify Raw umber

                                                    #1252174
                                                    Mythrill
                                                    Default

                                                        A bit of a Range of bought colors Seems to make Mixing easier ( for me) since i Can Change some subtleties in Skin Tones more easily.example: My Problem to modify Raw umber

                                                        Artist, try a combination of Nickel Titanate (PY 53) with Chrome Titanate (PBr 24), either mixed or as separate pigments. Combined, they are very close in behavior and mixing to the real Naples Yellow (PY 41) – without the toxicity.

                                                        #1252175
                                                        Gigalot
                                                        Default

                                                            My Problem to modify Raw umber

                                                            You don’t need to use Naples Yellow to do that. Use Lamp Black and synthetic iron oxides – PY42 or PR101.

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