lead pencil lead oil paint do they marry well?

[Raffless]

For many years now i have used Polychromos pencils. They were much much cheaper years ago. I also use Sennelier fixative.

[WFMartin]

Typical “lead” pencils are graphite.

Williamsburg makes a graphte oil paint, it’s pretty cool. I have a tube but haven’t actually used it yet.

Lead- the metal lead- Pb – is an oil paint pigment, white, toxic in powder form or if ingested.

There are some who will say don’t do a graphite drawing under your oils because the graphite will migrate up. It has happened to some.
Others will say it doesn’t matter, they have done it for years with no issue.

My personal preference is either to do the drawing in thinned paint, or charcoal. I personally never use graphite under oils, or on any canvas.

Yeah…..What she said! I, too, have used graphite for my drawings under oils when I first began painting, until I learned of the dreaded, “strike-through” of graphite.

Charcoal works so well for this purpose that I don’t understand why anyone would even bother to take the risk of using graphite. And, those clear, isolating layers of “stuff” that some apply so early in their paintings, merely to attempt to counteract any possible strike-through of the graphite, are probably more detrimental to the painting than using charcoal, without any sort of isolating material.

So, Naw…..Grahite, and oil paints do NOT “marry well”, in my opinion!:)

wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

[tidal]

wfmartin is a quote bellow hope you don’t mind me posting your tip on here I just thought it would help anyone else who was struggling to find a way to deal with being able to do a detailed under drawing due to the fact most medium that are available to draw with are probably not the best compatible for oils and it always comes down to using charcoal which is like trying to remove egg shell from an egg using a club bludgeoning it lol

“I draw on tracing paper, and coat the backside of it with soft vine charcoal, only where the drawn lines are. Then, I flip it rightside-up, and transfer my drawing to the canvas, using a ballpoint for a stylus.

I feel that charcoal is much safer to use for oil painting than either graphite, or carbon paper. The issue is future strike-through of the line drawing, of course.

Want a neat “trick” for making the charcoal lines more intense, and much more indelible? Give the canvas a flat coat of tinted, white, oil paint, using enough medium so that the paint becomes “self-leveling” (brush strokes flatten within a few seconds of having been applied). Allow that oil paint application to dry until it is just past “touch dry”, but still a tad tacky.

Perform the transfer onto THAT surface for a really incredible (and indelible) transfer of charcoal. Dust off the excess powder with a paper towel. Give it a try, and you’ll understand the reason I do it”.

Sculpture is what you bump into when you back up to see a painting..Barnett Newman

[WFMartin]

tidal,

Hey, I read that all the way through, all the while thinking, “Hey, that makes perfect sense!” only to discover it was my own quote!:lol:

Thank you so much for posting that! Yes, that is precisely the way I do it. With a charcoal line so indelible, there is no need to resort to using graphite pencils. Charcoal is much more compatible with oil paint than graphite pencil. And, there is absolutely NO need for any sort of “isolating layer”, using any sort of spray stuff, because charcoal will not strike through.

wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

[AnnieA]

How did you determine that the pencil was originally not visible at all?

Hey, Sid, here’s a link to an image of the painting in question: https://visualelsewhere.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/sanford-robinson-gifford-mount-rainier-bay-of-tacoma-puget-sound.jpg
The strike through is around the near canoe. Check both ends of the canoe and you’ll see it, although you’ll need to zoom in quite a bit (do this through your browser rather than the magnifying glass offered on the page, as it has only one step of magnification). There are also some ghost figures in the canoe; it looks like the original drawing had them sitting too high). Do you really think, given the artists obvious care with all other parts of the painting, that he’d leave those marks if they were visible from the start?

I really hope you guys (Bill, tidal, contumacious, et al) are right about charcoal working better with oil paint, b/c in my figure painting class I opted to use charcoal first and then go to oil paint. But when the drawing was far enough along and I started laying in paint lines over the charcoal, I’m not absolutely sure all those lines really took – it almost felt as if the charcoal layer was preventing the complete adhering of the paint to the surface. The charcoal in question was in the form of a fairly thin stick and I wonder now if it left too distinct a line. I guess I’ll find out soon enough. But since I am planning an impasto piece, in which opaque paint will probably cover much of the surface, it may not be as relevant an issue.

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[Dcam]

In 1870 they did not have the materials we have today to stop any bleed thru.

Website: www.artderek.com
DEMONSTRATIONS:https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1363787
https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1343600
https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1431363

[TomMather]

I’ve had pencil lines show through in paintings, particularly with light colors such as white and pale blue skies. Usually I notice it and glaze over the offending spots until the lines disappear. For that reason, I usually “sketch” the composition with a paint brush and thinned ultramarine blue or burnt umber. However, I might just be picking up a graphite pencil soon.

Tom Mather Art on Etsy

[Anonymous]

Do you really think, given the artists obvious care with all other parts of the painting, that he’d leave those marks if they were visible from the start?

I didn’t see it and sometimes artists do leave pencil marks visible from the start.
I agree that it would seem unlikely that it was visible when new, but it could easily be faded paint, I have very old paintings that I did that have faded in spots and reveal what was underneath.
There are also many examples of even oil paint showing through oil paint, that reveal pentimento. Pretty much anything can show through with the right conditions but are not truly due to bleed through migration. If graphite bleeds right through oil paint, then you could just erase the graphite, since it comes right on up through the paint.

[AnnieA]

I didn’t see it and sometimes artists do leave pencil marks visible from the start.
I agree that it would seem unlikely that it was visible when new, but it could easily be faded paint, I have very old paintings that I did that have faded in spots and reveal what was underneath.
There are also many examples of even oil paint showing through oil paint, that reveal pentimento. Pretty much anything can show through with the right conditions but are not truly due to bleed through migration. If graphite bleeds right through oil paint, then you could just erase the graphite, since it comes right on up through the paint.

I’m sorry you couldn’t see it, Sid. The image does need to be zoomed in on a lot and the lines aren’t that dark because of the quality of the image. IRL it really is more apparent. I can imagine some artists allowing pencil to show through, although I think it would occur more so today than in the past. But in the image I linked, it seems pretty clear that wasn’t the case. Instead, it’s pretty apparent that the painter decided to make the canoe not as long, and to seat the people in it down further in the vessel than he had first anticipated.

I thought it was pretty much agreed upon in the thread that graphite does not migrate, but instead when it later appears, it’s a case of the upper layers of paint becoming more transparent over time, revealing the graphite lines below. I know someone – I think it may have been Bill – mentioned that the issue may be the strength of the line that makes the difference, a solid dark line (as graphite would be) is going to show up more if the paint above becomes more transparent than a softer, less solid charcoal line that’s less distinct from the start.

Perhaps artists that draw softly with pencil have less of a problem than those who lay down heavy lines. What about you, Sid? Is your pencil drawing typically pretty light? Maybe that’s why some using graphite have problems and others don’t.

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[AnnieA]

In 1870 they did not have the materials we have today to stop any bleed thru.

What materials of today do you mean, Derek? If the problem is caused by the top layers of paint becoming more transparent, do you mean that our paints are more opaque today? Or that they are less inclined to become more transparent over time?

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[Anonymous]

I’m sorry you couldn’t see it, Sid. The image does need to be zoomed in on a lot and the lines aren’t that dark because of the quality of the image. IRL it really is more apparent. I can imagine some artists allowing pencil to show through, although I think it would occur more so today than in the past. But in the image I linked, it seems pretty clear that wasn’t the case. Instead, it’s pretty apparent that the painter decided to make the canoe not as long, and to seat the people in it down further in the vessel than he had first anticipated.

I thought it was pretty much agreed upon in the thread that graphite [I]does not[/I] migrate, but instead when it later appears, it’s a case of the upper layers of paint becoming more transparent over time, revealing the graphite lines below. I know someone – I think it may have been Bill – mentioned that the issue may be the strength of the line that makes the difference, a solid dark line (as graphite would be) is going to show up more if the paint above becomes more transparent than a softer, less solid charcoal line that’s less distinct from the start.

Perhaps artists that draw softly with pencil have less of a problem than those who lay down heavy lines. What about you, Sid? Is your pencil drawing typically pretty light? Maybe that’s why some using graphite have problems and others don’t.

sorry Annie, we are just not communicating well,
I meant that I had not seen the painting yet and I didn’t know whether they meant for lines to show or not. Once you posted the painting, yes I can see the painting now and the pencil lines, and I said it looked unlikely that they wanted the lines showing.
To me, the term bleed through, aka strike through, is not paint that has become transparent, it is saying it is a result of migration. In house painting you use blocking primers that prevent true bleed through. I have seen true bleed through that did it in one day, especially ink pens line, and one day is not enough time for paint to become transparent. Some claim that graphite is a special type of substance that will migrate, bleed, or strike through oil paint. Yet I have never seen even one test example that proves this actually happens. It would be so very easy to test out, in fact, I think I will do it when I get a chance.

If we are all simply talking about paint becoming transparent, and not bleed through, then it wouldn’t matter what you used underneath, because anything can show through.

I have drawn both light and very heavy pencil lines and then I fixative seal them to prevent smearing. I also seal charcoal lines with fixative to stop smearing, but I leave drawn paint lines alone and proceed with paint.
I think Derek is talking about the fixative sealers or liquid acrylic mediums available today that weren’t made back in those days.

[Anonymous]

I was 12 yrs old, and this was my first oil painting I did June, 1964 and I painted it from life too. After 54 years we might be starting to barely see something underneath Lol,
it might be pencil, or it might be charcoal, or charcoal pencil,
I might not have done a good job of covering the lines with paint,
it might be bleed through,
it might be paint worn off and or getting transparent
it could be some of, or all of the above,
I do remember using thin oil paint and turpentine to thin it down.
I just can’t remember anything else and I did the darn thing:

But notice that we are even seeing some of the canvas showing through on the table top.

Now in my second masterpiece of June 64, we can see pentimento and the tippy top of my mountain that I painted over with sky paint. I don’t remember if it was on purpose or just sloppy, but you can see paint underneath paint. You can see raw canvas at the base of the glorious mountains and expertly rendered train tracks.

I think anything can show through, pencil, paint, ink, charcoal, or canvas if there isn’t enough durable paint there to cover it well and last for a long time.

[tidal]

Contamacious that is a revalation to me about graphite not migrateing up and yes…SIDBLEDSOE in time oil become more transparent with age especialy so with linseed..I suspect this would be a concern for those using many thin subtle transparent colour layers..or like yourslef one or two layer will show through (that being said if graphite is not longer a concern) then one could actualy use colours spot on or near to the colour of final image or glazes they were using in a graphite pencil so it wouldn’t matter on show throuhgh.Or yes quite right could be like when you use a primer when you paint a surface they ahve a stain blocker to prevent things coming through ..so opaque colours that hide should work for that .Gues it could be a case of belt and braces iether use a transfer or if you do direct then iether charcoal pencil or if you use graphite try to match and blend the colour somehow disguise it especialy with transparent layers.No I don’t work for these companys but mentioning products as they do help those struggling with similar matters.Creta colour oil and charcoal made of in a pencil (hard)…derwent tinted pure charcoal in a pencil not any hard or softness though …Peel and sketch generals (hard) hard ones are meant to give more detailed controll to a charcoal stick however i didn’t find them that much controllable but better than a clump block of soft charcoal for sure.However the hard graphite will give that strike through shine..but softer if solouable can blend with the oil paint.

Doesn’t the oils become more transparent with time and also can darken so the line is going to be more noticeable when it first was so maybe make the drawn line colour match up to final top image (but a tone lighter ) and in a faint line pull of some of it with a putty rubber leave subtle line indentation etc etc 4hb (egzample) or soft graphite not to get that shine like you do with a hb all just ideas

Sculpture is what you bump into when you back up to see a painting..Barnett Newman

[stapeliad Moderator, NYC]

Sid: masterful work!!

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[tiago.dagostini]

There is another effect that is neither physical migration and neither the paint becoming transparent (in a normal way).

Graphite is a funny material that tends to PULL other carbon chains int he same orientation as the graphite molecules. That can affect the behavior of oil (that is basically carbon chains) where it gets close to the graphite… the result is among other things that the transparency at that point can change.

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