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  • #1169418
    juliet45
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        There is an interesting book by Rita Simon called The Symbolism of Style in which she relates different painting styles to Jung’s psychological types of Sensation, Feeling, Intuitive and Thinking personalities.

        Of course she was working with a psychiatric population of non-artists so informed conscious artistic decisions were not being made. Nonetheless I believe artistic style and preferences depend a lot on a person’s personality. Which is why we will always have different opinions on paintings.

        Irena

        #1169376

        I received my Painters Keys Letter from Robert Genn today and its subject is relevant to this thread. Public apology needed?

        I continue to be disappointed by the skepticism and suspicious remarks made about hyper-realistic styles… I realize there are instances where so called artists have cheated and it seems that one or two bad apples have spoiled the bunch.

        However, publicly humiliating anyone is reprehensible… I agree that it’s important to realize that jurying is subjective and artists must get thick skinned. But claiming that jurors are nice, curious people doesn’t excuse rudeness IMHO…

        Char --

        CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

        #1169395
        Mayberry
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            Hi Char, that is a very interesting article. I find it really odd that some people would feel the need to misrepresent their technique – to make it seem like they used brush and paint, when they instead used a photograph and printer. If the work of art stands on its own as art, why should the artist be ashamed of how it was done? It seems that in some cases anyway, art is being judged not as art, but as sweat and eye-hand coordination.

            Some people are quick to say that a camera “lies,” and that it’s easy to tell when an artist uses a photograph, because they bring the photograph’s lies into their painting. And yet, according to this article (and the comments), it is quite easy to fool jurors into thinking that a photograph printed on canvas is an original painting – one that deserves a prize. What if that cheating artist instead submitted that same artwork as a photographic artwork? Is it suddenly bad art, or mundane art, because it involved “simply” taking a picture with a camera?

            Certainly, if the artist stole the original image from another artist, then there is theft involved. I think that in an art jury, there needs to be a system set up to check artworks for copyright infringement, just as professors need to check student papers for plagarism.

            Anyway, I’m reading a used book I just got, “Realists at Work,” that has a lengthy interview of Chuck Close. He’s a photorealist, in that he uses photographs, but he’s certainly not hiding his technique. He celebrates it.

            #1169406
            virgil carter
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                We could get hung up on terms and definnitions here, but as I understand it:

                  [*]Photorealism: finished paintings that visually appear to be photographs. It doesn’t matter if the source material was real life, imaginary or sketches/photos, etc. It’s the finished painting that matters;
                  [*]Hyperrealism: finished paintings that appear photographic, but go far beyond simple realistiic photos using highly personal color, distortion, etc., for visual effect–sorta super Photshop!

                The challenge for a critique and appreciation of both approaches is trying to understand the artist’s intent: is the intent one of technique, or is the intent one of emotion, symbolism, abstraction, feeling, etc.?

                The better the photo/hyper realistic technique, it seems, the harder it is to understand artistic intent. Are folks striving to paint chrome and crystal striving for a perfect technique, an emotion or feeling or something else?

                Of course, intent is often directly related to painting experience: early painters often want to “perfect” their technique, making a tree look like a tree, and ultimately chrome and crystal look proper. This is a natural part of the painting journey for many painters and perfectly understandable.

                At some point in the painting journey, one becomes aware that there are personal choiced to be made: visual accuracy, emotions and feelings, symbolism, abstraction and non-representational approaches, etc. Everyone may choose what appeals to them. EArly painters may not be aware of this. Mature painters are certainly aware of this.

                But when one looks at a painting, a viewer has no idea about the painting experience or intent of the painter.

                So, the viewer simply makes a decision about whether the painting is appealing or not! At the end of the day, it’s the finished painting that counts and every viewer’s perception of it. That’s the wonderful thing about art: something for everyone!

                But the issue of producing art using copy technology is another matter entirely. That’s flagrant dishonesty and fraud!

                Finally, if one enters one’s work in a competitive, juried competition or exhibition, then one accepts the rules and the juror’s questions/decisions. Or one doesn’t enter. Simple! Even when a juror may appear to be questioning, that’s the juror’s perogative. Play by the rules or don’t play! That applies to entrants and jurors alike!

                Just some thoughts!
                Sling paint!
                Virgil

                Sling paint,
                Virgil Carter
                http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                #1169396
                Mayberry
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                    It’s my understanding that one of the distinguishing characteristics of photorealism is that the source material is necessarily one or more photographs, not imagination or real life. It actually is the source material that matters. Philosophically, it is the embrace and celebration of the photograph.

                    Hyperrealism is a term sometimes used interchangably with photorealism. Currently it is also used to refer to a contemporary spin-off of photorealism. It is often considered more expressive than photorealism, not in its use of personal color or distortions, but in subject matter. While photorealism of the 70s and 80s dealt mostly with the depiction of mundane, emotionally neutral objects, current hyperrealism often depicts more personal images or images with social or political significance.

                    The term “hyperrealism” also refers to the exaggeration of detail and sharpness that goes beyond the resolution of the photograph and goes beyond the resolution of the actual objects to create a sharp, pristine look that cannot exist in reality. The artist doesn’t “distort” the photograph, but makes it more real than real.

                    #1169407
                    virgil carter
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                        Cathy, I stand corrected. Wikipedia does point out that the original photorealists did depend on cameras and photos as their source material. It also points out that their goal was to produce a finished painting that looked like a photograph. Thanks for the clarification.

                        I’m not sure how many of today’s photorealists have the level of infatuation with cameras, photos and technology that characterized the beginning of that movement, but that’s really beside the point! Given the level of detail required for photorealism, photos do provide detailed descriptions of the subject matter. The goal, of course, is to produce a painting that resembles or is indistinguishable from a photo.

                        I think we agree that photorealism is not the same as hyperrealism.

                        In these discussions it’s good to get the definitions clear so that everyone knows what is being discussed. Otherwise we all offer our ideas and experience, thinking we are talking about the same thing when that may not be the case.

                        Sling paint!
                        Virgil

                        Sling paint,
                        Virgil Carter
                        http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                        #1169397
                        Mayberry
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                            Hi Virgil, it’s true, people seem to be talking about lots of different things when they use the words photorealism and hyperrealism.

                            Here’s a video of a discussion panel of artists at a photorealism exhibit in New Jersey last year. (Unfortunately it has rather poor sound quality, but it shows a lot of artworks – sculptures as well as paintings.) http://vimeo.com/33166510

                            They do still very much embrace photography and other forms of technology as part of the process in art-making. I don’t think it’s quite right to say that the goal is to produce a painting that looks like a photograph though. That may be part of the process, but not the goal of the artwork overall.

                            And here’s an article reviewing (rather unsympathetically) the same exhibit. http://hyperallergic.com/36031/our-own-directions-louis-k-susan-p-meisel/

                            #1169398
                            Mayberry
                            Default

                                This video is interesting too, an exhibit of photorealistic art of the 70s with the artists (now quite old) talking about their paintings. Good sound quality, lots of images. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFhJRfJUcUM

                                #1169408
                                virgil carter
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                                    Cathy, thanks for this additional information. Since a number of photorealists do apparently still embrace the use of technology in the making of their paintings, it does support the questioning by jurors and viewers about the degree of “human effort” in photorealistic paintings, doesn’t it?

                                    Thus, for photorealists, the article posted by Char seems even more logical. I wasn’t really personally aware of the focus by some painters to use photographic and technical means to produce their finished art–although it makes perfect sense, if that’s their preference. Why not?

                                    The problem in my mind comes when such “photographic and technical” art is entered into competitions and exhibitions with “hand made” art (what else can they be called). I have always been uncomfortable with competitions which simultaneously involve both paintings and photographs in the same show. It’s apples vs. oranges! IMO, shows should be for painting or photography, not both simultaneousy (assuming the shows are jurored, space is limited and prizes are awarded, in other words, a competition).

                                    On the other hand, if the show is simply one of hanging good works (without jurying or other critical evaluation), then it seems to me that the work can (and should) be any media.

                                    Paradoxically, the issue of photographic and technical means adds a bigger burden for those painters who enjoy and prefer to paint photorealistic paintings, regardless of the actual techniques they may use. That is, painting photorealistically may open the painter to questions and reservations of jurors and viewers who may wonder about the use of technology in their painting processes.

                                    I think this aspect of the discussion may have gone beyond the context first posted by Char, which may have been simply focused on one’s personal preference in how one chooses to make a painting. I could be wrong! But your comments do helpfully open a wider understanding and appreciation of what photorealism actually is in the wider artworld!

                                    The debate goes on. And on!
                                    Sling paint!
                                    Virgil

                                    Sling paint,
                                    Virgil Carter
                                    http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                                    #1169377

                                    Nope… you missed my point entirely, Virgil! :lol: I was absolutely incensed that an Artist was publicly humiliated and Robert Genn intimated that it was justified because the work was photo realistic and engendered questions about its originality… Then he wrote his letter wondering why she wanted a public apology! Wow.

                                    I agree completely with your assessment… but surely there’s a respectful way to handle the concerns and questions.

                                    [INDENT][INDENT][FONT=”Georgia]…” painting photorealistically may open the painter to questions and reservations of jurors and viewers who may wonder about the use of technology in their painting processes.”[/FONT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

                                    Frankly, I don’t care how anyone chooses to paint… all styles are fascinating… and one style doesn’t engender intent or emotion more than another… they’re all just different… but that’s another discussion, isn’t it? :)

                                    Recently, I participated in a juried exhibition and was quite surprised by the volume of photographs that were accepted into the show… in fact, next year’s show may suffer because many of the painters were very unhappy… The second place ribbon was awarded to a photograph printed on canvas…

                                    One photograph had been overpainted and was labelled a mixed media. I guess I was ok with that… to some degree…

                                    But, the photographs were not purported to be anything other than what they were… photographs…

                                    I don’t understand your point in this sentence… Guilty until proven innocent???????

                                    [INDENT][INDENT][FONT=”Georgia]”Since a number of photorealists do apparently still embrace the use of technology in the making of their paintings, it does support the questioning by jurors and viewers about the degree of “human effort” in photorealistic paintings, doesn’t it?”[/FONT][/INDENT][/INDENT]

                                    Lots of non photo realist painters embrace the use of technology in the making of their paintings.

                                    Char --

                                    CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                                    #1169409
                                    virgil carter
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                                        Char, I completely agree about the importance of respect. And about the personal preferences each of us has about approaching a painting.

                                        That said I think it entirely appropriate that a juror raise respectful questions about a painting. If a juror cannot inquire about methods, then the only alternative is to boot the painting in question out of the competition, which is fair enough.

                                        Char wrote, “I don’t understand your point in this sentence… Guilty until proven innocent?????

                                        “Since a number of photorealists do apparently still embrace the use of technology in the making of their paintings, it does support the questioning by jurors and viewers about the degree of “human effort” in photorealistic paintings, doesn’t it?”

                                        ” Lots of non photo realist painters embrace the use of technology in the making of their paintings.”

                                        Of course you are right about many painters using technology, particularly for hyperrealistic approaches, where Photoshop effects may simply be copied for the painting itself. It’s just that photorealists (and hyperrealists, by nature of their finnished work, IMO), have the extra burden, imposed on them by colleagues who obviously do use technology, to be convincing that their paintings are “hand made”! That’s all.

                                        Of course, this is a discussion of approaches thatt will never be resolved as long as two or mor painters use different approaches.

                                        It’s a good discussion!

                                        Sling paint!
                                        Virgil

                                        Sling paint,
                                        Virgil Carter
                                        http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                                        #1169378

                                        You’re right that we’ll not reach any resolution, Virgil… our discussions will hopefully raise awareness amongst our peers to be more open to all styles of art, including photographs…

                                        I raised the issue of the Painters Keys letter because Robert Genn is well respected in his own right and his opinions are widely accepted. That he seems to be callously accepting the lack of respect by a juror in the example he cited is reprehensible (to me)…

                                        There does seem to be a prejudicial air directed toward the hyper and photo realistic artists that isn’t prevalent anywhere else, including the photographers…

                                        It’s one thing to question… it’s another to question accusingly

                                        Char --

                                        CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                                        #1169387
                                        ona
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                                            Interesting thread

                                            I wouldn’t be at all concerned about being asked about my paintings quietly or publically in front of others by any juror. I’m secure and confident in what I do. Maybe thats just me though. I certainly wouldn’t be asking for an apology if i was asked by a juror:eek:. I know I’m not a photo realist. I rarely stick to my reference(s) but my work is realistic and my style of soft glazes mean brush strokes are often not visible so I would rather the jurors openly asked and proof was shown rather than me miss out on an award or acceptance because they were unsure. As I say thats just me though.:cat:

                                            Ona

                                            #1169399
                                            Mayberry
                                            Default

                                                Certainly an artist needs to abide by the rules of an art show and copyright rules in general. (And of course, the jurors need to do any interrogation of an artist about whether rules were broken in private. Really, they should do their homework first, if possible, and not need to question the artist at all.)

                                                The use of photographs and projectors and other mechanical and digital technology is certainly not new. Image projection type devices were used centuries ago (camera lucida). I still find it puzzling that people don’t want to consider an artwork on its own, as the image itself, but are concerned about whether the artist used technology to make it. As I said earlier – people claim that it’s easy to tell if an artist used a photograph. If this is so, then there is no deception involved. Jurors can base their decisions on what they see in the picture. Is it good art or not? Rather than, how good is the artist’s eye-hand coordination at painting a realistic image? Should they judge on art or on sweat?

                                                I haven’t seen much photorealist art in person, so I don’t have much of a reaction to it. I do respect the philosophy of the photorealists (and hyperrealists) in general though – “Yes, I use photography! And projectors! My artwork is ABOUT technology and its impact on human experience. My artwork is ABOUT modern society and its banal shiny commercial airbrushed surfaces. It’s ABOUT the digitalization of data and the flood of intricately detailed information about everything around us.”

                                                #1169410
                                                virgil carter
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                                                    Cathy, I think it’s one thing to have one’s art “about” technology and its impacts; it’s another thing entirely to have one’s image printed on the paper/canvas by an ink jet printer and thereafter add color.

                                                    Similarly, there’s a vast difference between a painting and a colored photograph.

                                                    I think this is the issue here: is it a painting or is it a colored print?

                                                    And the closer a painting technique approaches a technological technique, the greater the legitimate questions–by a juror or by anyone else.

                                                    Of course, this is just my opinion. Others may differ and care less. Different strokes!

                                                    Sling paint!
                                                    Virgil

                                                    Sling paint,
                                                    Virgil Carter
                                                    http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

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