Home Forums Explore Subjects Classical Art How did the Pre-Raphaelites paint detail?

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  • #1327867
    AKrillLick
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        I am interested in knowing how the Pre-Raphaelites painted such incredible detail. I have always been a fan of their work, especially William Holman Hunt, John William Waterhouse and — probably my favourite artist ever — John Everett Millais.

        I’ll stick mainly with Millais from now on since he is my favourite and I think exemplifies the brotherhood. Where someone like Sargent, for example, was very economical with his strokes for the majority of a given canvas, Millais would paint everything quite crisply, almost down to blades of grass.

        The iconic Pre-Raphaelite painting is Ophelia.

        I have never seen this painting in real life — though am hoping to do so at some point — but even from a photo of it the level of detail in the flora is outstanding.

        How do you think he achieved such detail? I don’t think there is any magical answer; I assume he simply sketched it in, maybe did a layer of determine the general tones and then it was a case of painstakingly painting everything in by hand.

        I did go to an amazing Pre-Raphaelites exhibition in Liverpool a few years ago and it was hands down the greatest exhibition I have ever seen. I was not a painter at the time though so unfortunately was not able to use the opportunity to try to unpack the techniques used.

        #1330245
        Kiffin
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            I wonder if photography had anything to do with it?

            #1356838
            Keith2
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                The Pre-Raphaelites’ painting techniques are described here

                Learn the Fascinating Story Behind ‘Ophelia,’ an Iconic Pre-Raphaelite Painting

                Millais painted the setting in “Ophelia” in painstaking detail. He found a suitable stream in Surrey, south east England and spent about five months painting the vegetation.

                As for Ophelia herself, he persuaded the artist and model Elizabeth Siddal to lie in a bath of water, with a heater underneath.

                 

                 

                 

                #1356982
                AKrillLick
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                    Thanks for the link, I’ll read that tonight!

                    It is such an incredible painting, Millais is probably my favourite artist.

                    Once I am able to I am going to get the train down to London and go to that Tate and see this in the flesh.

                    I did see a Pre-Raphaelite exhibition in Liverpool a few years ago and it was out of this world! Now I paint myself I would love to see all those works again with a more analytical eye.

                    #1462963
                    WFMartin
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                        I’ll try to sum it up:  Small brushes, appropriate painting medium, appropriate paint (including Lead White…..look at the jewels on the breast of Ophelia!.  Can hardly be accomplished without the use of hand-mulled, Lead Carbonate paint.  Also, painting on flat panel, rather than rough canvas.

                        And, above all………TIME !  Such profound detail must be  accomplished with the utmost of CARE, and that requires TIME.  The process of accomplishing incredible paintings is NOT a “timed contest” !

                        wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                        https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                        #1462970
                        AKrillLick
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                            Thanks, yes, I think you’re right.

                            They had the advantage of being able to spend all their time on it! I’m just a Sunday painter — but it would be great to get a small piece done in this style.

                            You can’t get lead white in acrylic as far as I know. I have titanium and mixing whites, the latter is mostly zinc and allows you to increase value without making it chalky.

                            You can achieve a stunning effect by layering thin transparent layers of gloss medium (they used amber varnish) and paint but as mentioned I am after the fidelity, not the brightness. I like realism with dirtier colours.

                            #1463072
                            WFMartin
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                                I can’t help you much if you’re working in acrylics, I’m afraid.  The difference between acrylic painting, and oil painting is “apples and oranges”, in my opinion.

                                Some colors that are available in oil paint aren’t even available in acrylic paint.  Nor is the significant difference between opaque, and transparent.

                                Acrylics “dry back” to a darker value than when they were applied (wet), and that makes it nearly impossible to match colors to a previously painted passage.   Also, there was much blending of colors in the works of the old masters, and that operation is nearly impossible with acrylics, because of their profoundly fast drying characteristic.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                #1463074
                                AKrillLick
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                                    Just to correct a few of your misunderstandings:

                                    Most of the same pigments are available in both mediums.

                                    Modern quality acrylics do not colour shift.

                                    Millais often cross hatched to blend, which can be done in any medium. In fact, he generally avoided blending in the traditional sense.

                                    Blending is easy to do in acrylics if you understand the medium.

                                     

                                    #1463088
                                    Keith2
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                                        I think blending is quite hard to do when using acrylics, especially if you paint on paper. It’s a little easier if the surface is canvas. I’ve also tried mixing retardant to slow down the drying time. It seems to weaken the colours unless you keep the retardant to a minimum.

                                        #1463168
                                        WFMartin
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                                            Just to correct a few of your misunderstandings: Most of the same pigments are available in both mediums. Modern quality acrylics do not colour shift. Millais often cross hatched to blend, which can be done in any medium. In fact, he generally avoided blending in the traditional sense. Blending is easy to do in acrylics if you understand the medium.

                                            Perhaps most pigments are now available in both mediums.

                                            But, I beg to differ with you regarding the fact that acrylic paints don’t shift in value as they dry……  I would assume that modern, acrylic painters such as TV’s personality,  Jerry Yarnell would be using the most modern acrylic paints available.  All one needs to do to prove my point is to watch a couple of his shows.  One can actually sit and watch his applied, acrylic paint darken as they dry,  during his demonstration, and within a minute or two after having been applied!

                                            Cross-hatching may be an effective way of blending, but it is an operation that is not required when painting with oil.  It may be used as a option for acrylics that dry faster than you can blend them, but I don’t care much for my having to accommodate for a medium that has such profound fast-drying as one of its characteristics.

                                            wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                            https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                            #1473973

                                            Hello, I just wanted to chime in here with my thoughts on the subject.  It is amazing to us twenty first century artists how the artists from bygone times were able to do the things they did, isn’t it?  It’s hard to imagine an artist spending 7 months, day after day, painting a stream in plein air, just to get it right.  The studies, the sketches, the preparation and execution all require so much TIME, as WF Martin has pointed out.  It is a question of dedication, I think, to the art form that is what sets the great artists apart.  The amount of time required for such and undertaking is amazing, but also the countless hours of learning and experimenting and hard work just to get to that point is equally amazing to me.  Millais was a prodigy, beginning his study and work at a very young age.  Same with the renaissance masters who the Pre-Raphaelites admired so much.  Their system was even more severe, plucking artists with talent from school and even from their families at an early age to apprentice to the great teachers, to learn all about the traditional methods.  A stunning fact, Michelangelo sculpted David when he was twenty six years old, but he had already apprenticed for 13 years!  He already had worked in quarries with stone and had become familiar with everything about carving and polishing, and how the stone behaved.  When I think about what I was doing and where my head was at when I was twenty six, it makes me shudder!

                                            I believe if we had a similar system set up today where we took promising students away to apprentice programs and taught them in the same way, we would be able to produce great masters as well.  The problem is that will never happen in today’s fast-paced society, where everyone wants fame for their 15 minutes and no one is willing to put in the time and dedication to learn traditional methods.  There are still some traditional teaching in the arts, especially in classical music and maybe ballet, but it is fading away.  I am just afraid once these things are gone they are lost forever.

                                            #1477427
                                            AKrillLick
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                                                For anyone who is interested in painting like the early Pre-Raphaelites, I have done the attached reproduction using acrylics.

                                                This is an early Millais I have done on A3 MDF.

                                                I visited the Walker gallery in Liverpool at the Tate Britain in the last few months and have seen some of the best Pre-Raphaelite works in the flesh, including Ophelia.

                                                My photography isn’t very good so you can’t make out all the detail but I feel this style is a fair representation of the technique (a lot less talent evident here though!) in terms of level of detail.

                                                With the exception of Isabella, Millais did not blend. He rendered form using tiny “pixel” strokes, much like a TV does. I softened the abstraction of pixels with glazes. I know the Pre-Raphaelites did glaze but I don’t know to what extent. Acrylics have huge advantage here as you can do lots of glazes in a day as there is no restrictive fat-over-lean to adhere to.

                                                I have not used the “wet white” technique here where you create a stained-glass effect by painting transparent layers over a tacky white layer. Although they did use this is was not for entire paintings and my exercise was to try and paint with the fidelity of a Pre-Raaphaelite, rather than the glow. I personally prefer more lifelike “dirty” colours but may try a stained-glass effect in future.

                                                I hope that helps anyone searching for this. Once you get the hang of it you realise it’s patience that is required more than anything else. No wonder it took Millais five months at 60+ hours a week to paint the background of Ophelia.

                                                I also “created” lead white with my limited acrylics palette just to put to bed the exceptionalism upthread that claims lead white has some kind of mystic quality. There’s also a good Mark Carder video on YouTube debunking this.

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                                                #1477444
                                                Keith2
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                                                    That’s very good, you’ve captured the Pre-Raphaelite style.

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