How can charcoal be not lightfast?

[Lyta]

Hi people!

I always took it for granted that charcoal, carbon and graphite, being pigment-free and in essence (give or take some binder) just forms of elemental carbon, wouldn’t possibly fade over time. The paper may yellow or decay in some other way, but nothing would happen to the actual “black stuff”.

Now, I took a look at this colourchart of the Derwent Tinted Charcoal pencils. The coloured ones aren’t very lightfast, no mystery there, it’s probably the pigment they used. But the last three varieties, Charcoal Light, Medium and Dark, are exactly the stuff Derwent sells as regular charcoal pencils (without lightfastness ratings!), and that scares me! Are they fugitive because Derwent, for some reason that escapes me, has put pigment into them to achieve the three degrees of darkness? Or is there any actual way “real” charcoal (or, at that, real and pure graphite) can be fugitive?

It would be lovely if someone could ease my mind by telling me it’s not possible…

I love their Light Charcoal, and while I don’t mind much if my drawings look somewhat fainter in 10 or 20 years, BW 1 implies that they’ll be virtually gone within a year or so… I haven’t noticed any fading yet, but that’s because everything I’ve done with that pencil so far is in one of my sketchbooks…

(Also, according to Derwent, their white Tinted Charcoal is actually a white pastel pencil. How on earth do you manage to make such a terribly fugitive white pastel, especially when the actual Derwent Chinese White pastel pencil is BW 8? :confused: But that’s a different point.)

[michaeleric]

That has had me confused as well. It does not make sense. Maybe you need to ask Derwent themselves.

Michael

[Lyta]

If no one else here on WC! can tell me, I’ll definitely ask them and post the reply here… Just thought I’d ask you knowledgeable bunch first. This is a scary affair… Fugitive charcoal… *shudders*

[SparowHawk7 Moderator Drawing and Sketching]

I don’t know the answer either … but logically it seems to me that if Derwent is offering different values and different tints in a charcoal pencil, the charcoal must be processed in some way or another. By definition charcoal is simply burnt wood .. but how could you make different grades consistently doing it with fire? Perhaps they use a chemical process to create the charcoal … ?

Ken

http://www.heritageartstudios.com/

[Kenny]

I’ve never trusted Derwent pencils. They seems to be some sort of tinting/coloring involved in even their “plain” graphite and charcoal.

I would agree with what Ken says and also Michael in that if you really want to know ask them directly and see what they say, see if it makes sense.

Kenny A. Chaffin
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

[Ikneadaneraser]

True charcoal gets its ‘hardness/softness’ from the type of wood used: vine or willow. Nothing is added to the charred wood.
Derwent’s (and other mfrs’) charcoal pencils and compressed sticks are really just charcoal dust that has been bound together with a binding agent. I would suspect the binding agent to be to blame for any lightfastness issues, rather than the charcoal- unless an unknown ‘other’ pigment has been added in the process.
If Derwent has declared/admitted a lightfast issue, I would applaud them for ‘truth in advertising’.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]Jerry
"A man's got to know his limitations." ('Dirty Harry Callahan')
"...but NOT create them!" (Jerry Fuller, aka 'Ikneadaneraser')

[Gerri Mc]

I would be interested to see what they say too. There should only be binder in the compressed charcoal and nothing at all added to the others.

It also raises the “white charcoal” argument again – is there any such thing as white charcoal?

Gerri

"Every production of an artist should be the expression of an adventure of his soul". W. Somerset Maugham.

[Kenny]

I would be interested to see what they say too. There should only be binder in the compressed charcoal and nothing at all added to the others.

It also raises the “white charcoal” argument again – is there any such thing as white charcoal?

Gerri, I had this question some time ago myself and did some research. White Charcoal is truly charcoal. It’s processed differently than regular charcoal (hotter I believe and maybe different wood/starting point) which causes it to be white instead of black.

Kenny A. Chaffin
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

[Lyta]

Thanks all for the input!

White charcoal definitely sounds interesting, but Derwent states that their white Tinted Charcoal is actually a white pastel pencil.

Also, they don’t have different degress of hardness, they’re all soft – just slightly different in value. That’s why I like their Light Charcoal – it’s light and soft, so it can be smooshed around and isn’t scratchy.

I know that Faber-Castell and probably others make particularly black compressed charcoal (in sticks as well as pencil form) by adding soot… Which shouldn’t fade either. And their charcoal pencils indeed come in different degrees of hardness and are labled as top lightfast which I always thought was only natural…

I think I’ll go and contact them now; they were friendly enough when they had to destroy my hopes for an extended Drawing range…

Edit: I just sent the enquiry and will post the reply when I get it.

[Sam Harrison]

Oh my how can they I don’t even know what what WHAT!?

How is it even possible to make colors that are so fugitive? What kind of crazy world do we live in that both green and red (colors that have problems in many pastel pencil lines) are more lightfast than BLACK?

Amazing. Simply amazing.

“Fugitive charcoal”.
Soon we’ll have perpetual motion machines and never-ending glowsticks.

[Anonymous]

White Charcoal is truly charcoal. It’s processed differently than regular charcoal … which causes it to be white instead of black.

This question is popping up regularly in this forum. One should really make a clear distinction between the white “charcoal” used by artists and the “white” charcoal used for the BBQ.
The white “charcoal” is really pastel or chalk, supposedly “improved” for better compatibility with charcoal.
The “white” charcoal is a high quality charcoal, indeed from a dense wood, and processed on a higher temperature, so that it is purer carbon. The “white” is the literal translation of the Japanese trade name. An advertising trick, based on the gray skin that is left by quenching the hot coals in a moist mixture of ashes and chalk. The coal itself is as black as any other charcoal.

[Kenny]

This question is popping up regularly in this forum. One should really make a clear distinction between the white “charcoal” used by artists and the “white” charcoal used for the BBQ.
The white “charcoal” is really pastel or chalk, supposedly “improved” for better compatibility with charcoal.
The “white” charcoal is a high quality charcoal, indeed from a dense wood, and processed on a higher temperature, so that it is purer carbon. The “white” is the literal translation of the Japanese trade name. An advertising trick, based on the gray [I]skin [/I]that is left by quenching the hot coals in a moist mixture of ashes and chalk. The coal itself is as black as any other charcoal.

I don’t know if you are contradicting what I said or agreeing with it, but the fact is that white charcoal IS charcoal, not tinting, no mixing, no pastel nothing different from black charcoal, just processed differently.

Some links:

http://www.pyroenergen.com/articles08/black-white-charcoal.htm

This page mentions compressed white charcoal which is what we see in charcoal pencils and blocks/sticks:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-charcoal-pencils.htm

Kenny A. Chaffin
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

[Anonymous]

Kenny –
Charcoal is a form of carbon and is always black. Quote from the article by Junji Takano that you mentioned:

…quickly smother it with a covering of powder to cool it. The powder is a mixture of sand, earth, and ash. This will then give a whitish color to the surface of the charcoal. This is where the name “white charcoal” was derived.

So yes, I am contradicting you.

[Gerri Mc]

I don’t know if you are contradicting what I said or agreeing with it, but the fact is that white charcoal IS charcoal, not tinting, no mixing, no pastel nothing different from black charcoal, just processed differently.

Some links:

[URL]http://www.pyroenergen.com/articles08/black-white-charcoal.htm[/URL]

This page mentions compressed white charcoal which is what we see in charcoal pencils and blocks/sticks:
[URL]http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-charcoal-pencils.htm[/URL]

Knew you’d come up with the goods on the links Kenny.

But the pyroenergen info says:

“White charcoals are now used for industrial purposes like electronic components to medical applications in the scientific world.
Notice that black charcoal makes your hands black when you hold it but white charcoal will not because it is as hard as cast iron.”

Would that mean that this type of white charcoal would not be used for art?

If that is the case – then Arnoud and you are basically in agreement.

White charcoal exists and is actually “charcoal” but is not used for art / drawing???

Gerri

"Every production of an artist should be the expression of an adventure of his soul". W. Somerset Maugham.

[Kenny]

[B]Kenny –[/B]
Charcoal is a form of carbon and is always black. Quote from the article by Junji Takano that you mentioned:

So yes, I am contradicting you.

Carbon is NOT always black. Diamonds are carbon.

White artists charcoal is make from the the white residue of the process (which is different than for making black charcoal) which is compressed into pencils, sticks, etc. just like the black charcoal is. The non-compressed charcoal — like willow is black and there is no equivalent white willow charcoal.

Artists white charcoal is NOT pastels or colored pencil (tinted) type thing. It is actual charcoal just like black charcoal.

Gerri, apparently there is a type of charcoal called white charcoal that is used for “medicinal” or semi-medical purposes — as black charcoal is sometimes according to some of the links/pages I found and that charcoal is not necessarily actually white.

Kenny A. Chaffin
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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