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  • #991255
    JustinM
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        Hi All
        I have a question that i am sure someone here has an answer to.

        Many years ago (while in art school – so…early-mid 90s I guess) I bought a small box of Grumbacher pastels. They (sadly) sat on my shelf for years (decades actually!) while i painted mostly in watercolour & acrylic.

        Anyway, less than 2 years ago I decided to try a pastel & pulled out this set. It started me on my current journey and i have since accumulated many sets (not to mention gone almost exclusively pastel now!)

        I still use that set of grumbachers for the underpainting as i find it often doesnt cover up my initial lines, which is great when I am doing a portrait & trying to retain likeness as I develop it. Of course many of the sticks have worn down so I looked for replacement grumbachers & here’s what ive found:

        Please correct me if any of the following is wrong:

        – Grumbacher stopped making soft pastels some time in the 90s (or maybe shortly thereafter)

        – Prismacolour continued making the same product (labelled prismacolour premiere) for a short period of time – maybe 5 years. They didnt make them long & disconinuted but still (of course) make their well known NuPastels (also labelled “premiere”)
        I have 2 sets of the prismacolour and not only do they ‘feel’ and act the same they are identically sized, the packaging is the same and even the small slips inserted into the packages (you know, “breakage does not indicate a defective product etc”) are the same.

        – Prismacolour stopped making them. And there was no version of the old grumbacher available for a period of time

        – Finally (and here is where I am guessing) It *appears* as though the old grumbacher pastels may be currently being made by Schminke. I have several of the schminke individual sticks & there is a noticeable similarity in not only the colours but the naming system. The sticks are different size/shape but they handle very similarly.

        Also, I saw on ebay that some old grumbacher sets were labelled “Grumbacher Schminke” so i am beginning to believe, more and more, that the current schminke’s available are in fact the old grumbachers (updated) and then prismacolour premier.

        Any thoughts or contradictions to this?

        Justin Maas, SFCA, SCA, PDVC www.justinmaas.com[/url]
        Follow me on Instagram Maas.Art on Instagram
        Facebook: Facebook Gallery[/url]

        #1193656
        sketchZ1ol
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            hello

            i’m guessing that the grumbies you bought are half-sticks ; an introductory set .
            they do have a subtle but distinctive feel to them , especially on paper .
            > not familiar with any sticks labeled ‘ grumbacher schminke ‘ …
            >> would like to see that .

            schminke is very often described as ‘ buttery ‘ – one strong stroke will completely cover the support .

            nupastel as a brand name has gone thru different owners , but the complete set , 96 pc. , has been fairly consistent for colours and release .
            > it is considered a ‘ hard ‘ pastel , and as such on paper compared to schminke ,
            certain colours/%hardness will crush the tooth to make a solid colour rather than ‘ flood ‘ the tooth ,
            nonetheless ,
            the varieties of colour/familiarity/economy are a solid base .
            especially if you are transiting from pencils of some sort to pastel sticks .

            Ed

            a different world cannot be made with indifference

            #1193646
            Don Ketchek
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                I may be wrong, but I don’t think there is any connection.

                As you mentioned, US made Grumbachers stopped being made some time ago. The company went through a series of sales where they went from one owner to another – and at one point were owned by Prismacolor who put out some sets of portrait and (I think) landscape colors. The sets were fairly small – only 24 half-sticks I think. I bought two sets of the portrait sets a while ago, hoping that they would be the same as my old 70’s Grumbachers. The colors did seem to be the same, but the sticks were crumbly and I found them to be rather useless. Certainly not the consistency of the old Grumbachers.

                To my knowledge, Schminke – a German company that has been around since 1881 (or so), has no connection to Grumbacher now or ever. According to their website, they began making pastels around the turn of the (20th) century. The Schminke pastels are extremely soft – rated among the softest 2 or 3 brands. The Grumbachers I had (which were square) were probably a medium softness.

                I loved the old Grumbachers. I loved that they were square. I wish they were still made, so if anyone has any info about them being made again, I would be glad to hear it!

                Don

                EDIT: It is interesting that The old Grumbachers and Schminkes may in fact be using the same or similar numbering system. I notice that they both use number 16 (plus a series of letters) for flesh ochre. Series 14 is golden ochre for Schminke and light ochre for Grumbachers. It could be that one copied from the other. Giraults and Senneliers, for example, use the same numbers for many of their colors.

                It is also possible that the companies had some sort of arrangement in terms of distributing pastels in other countries, although that would seem odd for competitors. But some of my Grumbachers have labels in both English and German, though clearly labeled “Grumbacher” and “made in USA.” Perhaps Schminke or Grumbacher distributed each other’s pastels in their own countries, perhaps thinking that the harder Grumbachers complimented the extremely soft Schminkes, rather than competed with them. This is all pure conjecture on my part, but if anyone knows it would be interesting to find out.

                #1193642
                JustinM
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                    nupastel as a brand name has gone thru different owners , but the complete set , 96 pc. , has been fairly consistent for colours and release .
                    > it is considered a ‘ hard ‘ pastel , and as such on paper compared to schminke ,
                    certain colours/%hardness will crush the tooth to make a solid colour rather than ‘ flood ‘ the tooth ,
                    nonetheless ,
                    the varieties of colour/familiarity/economy are a solid base .
                    especially if you are transiting from pencils of some sort to pastel sticks .

                    Ed

                    Thanks Ed, as mentioned, i wasnt talking about the NuPastels – but in the 90s/2000s Prismacolour did sell a line of “soft pastel” called Premiere (as well as their NuPastel line) that seems to haev been old Grumbacher stock.

                    > not familiar with any sticks labeled ‘ grumbacher schminke ‘ …
                    >> would like to see that .Ed

                    See below :)

                    Justin Maas, SFCA, SCA, PDVC www.justinmaas.com[/url]
                    Follow me on Instagram Maas.Art on Instagram
                    Facebook: Facebook Gallery[/url]

                    #1193643
                    JustinM
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                        To my knowledge, Schminke – a German company that has been around since 1881 (or so), has no connection to Grumbacher now or ever. According to their website, they began making pastels around the turn of the (20th) century. The Schminke pastels are extremely soft – rated among the softest 2 or 3 brands. The Grumbachers I had (which were square) were probably a medium softness.

                        I loved the old Grumbachers. I loved that they were square. I wish they were still made, so if anyone has any info about them being made again, I would be glad to hear it!

                        Don

                        Well thats what I thought too Don but then i came across a few of these:

                        Its very odd but maybe Schminke is just a non-trademark-able German word? As you can see in the first pic, it says Schminke under Grumbacher. in the second it doesnt even say Grumbacher prominently inside – it says “schminke soft pastels” but the outside displays the grumbacher title & Address. What a mystery!

                        I agree about the Schminke’s feeling softer than the grumbachers I have used but there is some similarity in terms of consistency and definitely colours which is why I got to wondering….

                        Justin Maas, SFCA, SCA, PDVC www.justinmaas.com[/url]
                        Follow me on Instagram Maas.Art on Instagram
                        Facebook: Facebook Gallery[/url]

                        #1193647
                        Don Ketchek
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                            I added an edit to my post above, wondering if the two companies had a distribution agreement of some sort. The very soft round Schminkes might have been a good companion pastel to the harder square Grumbachers allowing them to co-exist rather than compete with one another. The purest guess on my part. They do have a similar numbering system, which could just mean that one copied from the other. Giraults and Senneliers also use the same numbering system (to each other – not to the Grumbachers) , but have never been connected as far as I know.

                            Interesting to say the least – but the current Schminkes are definitely not the same as the 1970’s Grumbachers.

                            Don

                            #1193651
                            allydoodle
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                                Interesting to say the least – but the current Schminkes are definitely not the same as the 1970’s Grumbachers.

                                Don

                                I agree, I have a very old set of Grumbachers, and I love them too. I use them along with the rest of my pastels, there are some colors that are unique. When they are gone, the are gone :crying: …..sad. I also wish they would come back, they were a very unique type of pastel, and their shape was great.

                                Chris - WetCanvas Guide, Pastel Forum

                                #1193648
                                Don Ketchek
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                                    Her’s a older WC thread that mentions that Grumbacher and Schminke had some sort of partnership in the past:

                                    https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547634

                                    Here’s a page that seems to show that Grumbacher owned the Schminke trademark from 1949 to 1982?, at least here in the US, perhaps?

                                    http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/71577573-schmincke.html

                                    Of course, this sort of agreement might be similar to todays “house brands.” Blick soft pastels are actually the same as Daler-Rowney, if I remember correctly; and Blick’s oil paint is actually just Sennelier oil paint with a Blick label.

                                    It looks like Grumbacher pastels used to be round, at least they seem to be in some photos from their facebook page. Facebook users might want to check there searching for “Historical Grumbacher”.

                                    Hopefully some of the “older” Grumbacher pastel users may have some insights on all this!

                                    Don

                                    #1193652
                                    Colorix
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                                        Nothing to add as such, but the obvious… a look at the images of the insides of the boxes, and it is clear the logo is so similar, except the name. The connection must have been there at some point in time.

                                        A guess at similarities of numbering systems– could they be based on the supplier of pigments system? Or maybe just the way things were done in one particular country. S and G *and* Roché have similar systems, with a number for each shade and tint.

                                        Charlie

                                        Charlie's Site/Blog

                                        #1193645
                                        robertsloan2
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                                            The Grumbacher sets that I bought in 1991 were 30 Assorted and 30 Skin Tones – they were firm round wrapped sticks similar to Rembrandt in softness category. They had a beautiful texture and I miss them. I don’t know about the color numbering system but it stands to reason that some systems might have been copied from other companies without too much fuss.

                                            I also had Nupastels back then, loved them for their texture and color range. They still have some gorgeous darks. Unfortunately lightfastness issues meant I passed them on to a friend and got different hard pastels to replace them, though since I miss certain lightfast colors I might replace them someday. Watch out for reds and pinks and purples especially for fading, if you get Nupastels it helps to put a color chart in a bright window and compare it with the sticks or fresh marks after a few months. I had a color chart just up on the wall and the changes were startling.

                                            Schminke are very soft, like Sennelier, I like them and have a few.

                                            Mungyo Gallery Extra Soft are in a category with the Rembrandts for softness. So are Winsor & Newton if you can still find any, the W&N ones are extremely high quality.

                                            I’m not sure what “schminke” means in German, if it’s a word for softness that’d explain a lot – descriptive on one product and brand name on another. I’m going to try it in Google Translate.

                                            According to Google Translate, “schminke” in German means “eyeshadow” in English. I don’t think that means Schminke pastels go on German ladies’ faces, but as a descriptive for soft pastels it makes sense? Colored powder?

                                            Anyone who has some Schminkes or those Grumbacher Schminke, enjoy painting with artist grade eyeshadow!


                                            Robert A. Sloan, proud member of the Oil Pastel Society
                                            Site owner, artist and writer of http://www.explore-oil-pastels-with-robert-sloan.com
                                            blogs: Rob's Art Lessons and Rob's Daily Painting

                                            #1193653
                                            Colorix
                                            Default

                                                According to Google Translate, “schminke” in German means “eyeshadow” in English. I don’t think that means Schminke pastels go on German ladies’ faces, but as a descriptive for soft pastels it makes sense? Colored powder?

                                                Anyone who has some Schminkes or those Grumbacher Schminke, enjoy painting with artist grade eyeshadow!

                                                Lovely theory, Robert, in class with Charlietymology! Schmincke (with c) is a name, Hermann Schmincke, who was one of the founders.

                                                Charlie

                                                Charlie's Site/Blog

                                                #1193649
                                                Don Ketchek
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                                                    Lovely theory, Robert, in class with Charlietymology! Schmincke (with c) is a name, Hermann Schmincke, who was one of the founders.

                                                    OK, so I spelled Schmincke wrong about 74 times!!!:eek::eek::eek:

                                                    And I am half German, too! Yikes! My Mother would be so disappointed!!!

                                                    Don

                                                    #1193654
                                                    Colorix
                                                    Default

                                                        Ah, Don, then you have no excuse! :-D (Just teasing.) I spell English wrong all the time, so I shouldn’t talk…

                                                        I notice the ‘ck’ as we have it in my language too, but of course it is easy for you guys to miss it. I do not know what Schmincke means, as I do not speak German.

                                                        Charlie

                                                        Charlie's Site/Blog

                                                        #1193658
                                                        NancyWorld7
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                                                            This thread is around 2 years old, but it seems an appropriate place to post.

                                                            I’d been trying to figure out the mysterious relationship between Grumbacher and Schmincke, and found a 2009 announcement from Chartpak that included the following:

                                                            “The Grumbacher and Schmincke relationship dates back to the early 1900s. Grumbacher distributed Schmincke colors until WWII, when Grumbacher began to manufacture its own line of premium colors in the U.S.” (Wet Canvas won’t let me post the link at this time. Maybe later.)

                                                            I had another chunk of info that I’ll post here if I can find it again.

                                                            #1193657
                                                            sketchZ1ol
                                                            Default

                                                                hello
                                                                thx for the update .

                                                                i’ve liked the release of the Grumbie sticks on paper thru colour/value/mixing/consistancy .

                                                                – wonder who owns the product/process rights ?

                                                                Ed

                                                                a different world cannot be made with indifference

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