Genuine Venetian Larch Turpentine

[RembrandtEternal]

Guess I’m not only learning about pigments/colours, now I’ve taken the task of refining my oil painting mediums…. I know I have recently revived a 2010 thread on Oil of Spike Lavender ….. Special thanks to WFMartin and others for your gracious help. :thumbsup:

Well, now into that mix I have my usual Venetian Turpentine which I hear is “not as good” the the genuine deal, which is supposedly Venetian Larch Turpentine.

A. I would like to know what makes the genuine larch turpentine better than the generic version?

B. This Larch is hard to find in the USA. I’ve emailed “someone” associated with the more popular company, Zecchi which is based in Italy, and they don’t really offer a USA base to order from. I finally came upon this company called Kremer, perhaps some of you know of them? They are based in New York. Anyway, after much time on Google, it led me to their site, and I found this!!!

http://www.kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=0206&lang=ENG&product=62000

Is this the real deal that we are talking about, because it is way more expensive than the Zecchi version.

http://zecchi.it/products.php?category=65 Still, I wouldn’t mind trying it out if this Larch is all its cracked up to be.

So is Kremer offering me the real one? And if so, nice, they are closed at this time at 7:14 PM Eastern time so I can’t ask them any question. Before I call them tomorrow, I thought maybe some of you experienced painters have some input into this matter, or have a “secret” place you shop for it, and wanna share that info? (lol, of course then it wouldn’t be secret! ) Anyway, all info would be greatly appreciated.

Nate

[dirtysteev]

To my knowledge you’re chasing nomenclature ghosts. Many evergreen species give up resins that can be distilled into turpenes (the powerful solvents in turpentine). Most of what you purchase as turpentine is a generalized blend of these. In North America balsam fir is a very common source tree for turps, as is the pine. Venice turpentine is simply turps derived from european larch (larix) resin. Calling it ‘Venitian Larch Resin’ is redundant. It is like saying ‘Linseed Flax Oil’. One can assume if it says Venice Turpentine it is already derived from the larch. Don’t be fooled by marketing.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102485309786134.5873.100000739957683&type=3

[RembrandtEternal]

dirtysteev, thanks for the reply. This is what I am concerned about too. I sure don’t want to be taken advantage of just because a product says “Genuine” and therefore we can assume its the better choice. :rolleyes: I have no problem paying the higher cost for a product that delivers on its promises in order to make my paintings look better.

I was thinking about my question part A as I was just walking around the block for some fresh air. A good analogy to clarify the issue…..

We know how Artist Grade oil colour differs from Student Grade. You add white, or mix other colours into student grade paints and they lose their strength. They just don’t hold their hue as expected. You can paint wet onto wet with Artist Grade pigments and they are able to cover over the underlayer without getting muddied by the colour beneath.

So, can a similar analogy be made regarding Larch Turpentine vs. Venetian Turpentine? I read on Wikipedia or another info thread how Venetian Turp. is made from Larch Turp. I’m thinking, does that mean the Venetian Turp. is a more “diluted” turp and therefore qualifies for the cheaper price?
We can ask ourselves, how do they differ in their handling of paint, do they smooth out the same, gloss wise? yellowing? etc.

Nate

[dirtysteev]

I have no problem paying the higher cost for a product that delivers on its promises in order to make my paintings look better.

I know of no product that can possibly deliver on this statement. Mediums might make your painting more glossy, or smoother, or more transparent, but better? Sign me up when you find that stuff, I’ll buy a case.

If I can find one conservator or curator who can walk through the history of all painting and tell me just from looking which were painted using venice turpentine I will buy them a cup of coffee.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102485309786134.5873.100000739957683&type=3

[Gigalot]

I tried Pistachio tree mastics resin, Fir varnish and Damar.
Both, mastics and fir balsam , I guess, are drying speed inhibitors. It took forever to dry, 6 month or more. Mixing with oil, balsam can not evaporate or oxidize cause slow polymerization
And oil paint can stay sticky like a Scotch tape for a long time, even if only small amount of those balsams are added. Damar varnish do not slow drying time and do not make paint so sticky.
I do not need any inhibitors in my paints as I prefer siccatives and practically, Damar is better choice for me.

[Anonymous]

I would like to know what makes the genuine larch turpentine better than the generic version?

RE, IDK the diff, I am guessing that it may be hard to get a real clear answer from anyone here, maybe they could tell you at AMIEN or on the Natural Pigments forum, I know that George O’Hanlon does in fact know a lot about this because I remember a post by him about the difference between the two, but I doubt that I could find it now. I have some from Shiva and it is genuine something, at least that is what the label says, others claim that it is not the other real gooder stuff.

If I can find one conservator or curator who can walk through the history of all painting and tell me just from looking which were painted using venice turpentine I will buy them a cup of coffee.

They can’t do that, and I can’t even tell the difference if something is painted with oil or acrylics or tempera.

[RembrandtEternal]

RE, IDK the diff, I am guessing that it may be hard to get a real clear answer from anyone here, maybe they could tell you at AMIEN or on the Natural Pigments forum, I know that George O’Hanlon does in fact know a lot about this because I remember a post by him about the difference between the two, but I doubt that I could find it now. I have some from Shiva and it is genuine something, at least that is what the label says, others claim that it is not the other real gooder stuff.

They can’t do that, and I can’t even tell the difference if something is painted with oil or acrylics or tempera.

sid, great reply. I will try those arenas maybe they will know something.
In the meantime, I was fortunate to be able to order a bottle from Zecchi! (Yes, the genuine Larch Turpentine. I was told they grow the trees specially for Zecchi. They told me this was used by The Old Masters and that is exactly what I was looking for…( :thumbsup:
If there is anything I find special compared to the Shiva brand Venetian Turp I have, I will gladly post a comparision between the two. Happy painting peepz.

Nate

[Anonymous]

yeah let me know if it is thicker or stickier, Bill describes his as chewing gum like but mine is nowhere near that gummy.

[Keith Russell]

dirtysteev, thanks for the reply. This is what I am concerned about too. I sure don’t want to be taken advantage of just because a product says “Genuine” and therefore we can assume its the better choice. :rolleyes: I have no problem paying the higher cost for a product that delivers on its promises in order to make my paintings look better.[/quote]

Yes, I’ve always said that a good photographer with a point-and-shoot camera will get better pictures than a poor photographer with a Leica. Likewise, a good artist can do more with notebook paper and crayons, than a poor artist can do in the finest studio studio…

I don’t know any painter who exhibits their work with labels touting the brands of paint, media, brushes, varnish, canvas, or panel they used to create the works on display.

Most artists I know, myself included, mix brands constantly. I painted another layer on my cuurrent piece, Monday night, of Doak Flake+Mica, Gamblin Portland Grey Medium, and Grumbacher Prussian Blue, using a medium that included Holbein, Doak, and Winsor-Newton products.

Which “brand” helps my painting “look” “better”? (And, better to whom, and based on whose standards?).

The only thing that can make my work “look” better, is me.

Forcing the waveform to collapse for two decades...
http://www.syntheticskystudios.com
Hilliard Gallery, Kansas City, "Small Works", December 2019

[RembrandtEternal]

sid I will. :wink2:

Keith, well said. Also, the brands you named….I take it you are using the “Artist Quality” in their respective brands? :thumbsup:

Nate

[Gigalot]

[B]sid[/B]IYes, the genuine Larch Turpentine. I was told they grow the trees specially for Zecchi. They told me this was used by The Old Masters and that is exactly what I was looking for…( :thumbsup:
Nate

It can be great medium to paint autumn leaves. The yellow color will be better and better over time! :wink2:

[RembrandtEternal]

It can be great medium to paint autumn leaves. The yellow color will be better and better over time! :wink2:

Gigalot…. Thanks, its been a long day at work, and God knows I needed a good LOL.

Nate

[Ken W]

Interesting thread…I’ve looked at the link to Kremer’s larch turpentine and see no claims of any sort. Please keep in mind that Kremer supplies not only to the modern artist, but also to the art restorers. I have recently spoken with a restorer who made the point to me that part of his job is to match the materials originally used as closely as possible and Dr. Kremer has spent much of his time and research looking into finding and reproducing just such materials. In fact some of the pigments (orpiment, realgar, et al) which are available at such sites have long been superseded by more modern and permanent materials, but are useful in the restoration trade. I’m not as expert as some of the folks who have replied to this thread, but this might be good to keep in mind when looking into classical or “old masters” materials…

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