Home › Forums › Explore Media › Watercolor › The Learning Zone › Daniel Smith tube paints crumble when dry
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April 11, 2018 at 6:48 am #454419
Hi all
I’ve been transitioning a bit from Sennelier paints to Daniel Smith ad I’ve had issues with the Daniel Smith paints actually crumbling once they dry. This doesn’t happen with Sennelier paints.
This is actually a pretty big problem because if you accidentally pick up a crumb of pigment on your brush and transfer it to your wash, that painting is ruined – already happened to me twice.
Jan
April 11, 2018 at 7:41 am #602896I’m definitely not a painter with a lot of experience, so take what I say with a grain of salt!! If it’s crumbling that much, it sounds like there is something lacking in the binder. Could you try to take the crumbling paint out of the pan and try to moisten it enough to be able to rewet the paint to turn it back into a flowing paint? I’ve heard many artists say that they mix in a drop of honey into their paint to keep the liquid paint loose and flowing. I’ve never heard of paint with honey crumbling. I hope this helps!
i thank you in advance for your advice and critiques!
April 11, 2018 at 7:46 am #602891I add small drops of glycerin and honey to Daniel Smith paints when I pan them. No more crumbling or rewetting troubles.
Susan
April 11, 2018 at 8:28 am #602887I don’t notice that with Daniel Smith, but am having a tough time with Winsor & Newton Raw Sienna doing the same thing. (just RS and nothing else). I was considering dumping my remaining WNRS and re-buying it from Daniel Smith to avoid this, but now, I am even more concerned. Having just cleaned out my RS well and added fresh WNRS I think I will drop in some glycerine to see if it helps.
Scott
April 11, 2018 at 9:08 am #602879I’m sorry to hear that. :/ I have not had that happen with any Daniel Smith colors but some of them do dry very hard and are nearly impossible to reactivate. I gave up on Mayan Blue Genuine. I recently got a few tubes of Sennelier and love it so far!!! I’ve never used such transparent colors. Is there a reason you are transitioning away from it? I am hesitant to squeeze it out in to pans for a travel palette, though, because of the honey in the binder. Have you done that? Did they harden enough to not make a mess in the paint box?
April 11, 2018 at 9:16 am #602893I have mostly DS paints in my large palette. I am new to watercolor, but I had read about adding a drop tiny drop of honey or glycerin to the paints when freshly squeezed. I’ve done that since the beginning and haven’t had any crumbling issues. Every once in a while, they loosen from their ‘home,’ but that’s no big deal. My American Journey paints I use for classes don’t need the extra humectant.
~ Carol
'We are too prone to engrave our trials on marble, and write our blessings in sand.' ~ Spurgeon
C&C appreciatedApril 11, 2018 at 9:21 am #602881All watercolor paints which do not use honey as the moisturizing agent will harden and dry if unused for long period.
Paints such as Sennelier, and others, which use honey as the moisturizing agent typically do not harden. But in warm to hot settings they may run from the palette wells into the mixing area, particularly if the palette is tilted during travel.
It’s helpful to understand the differences in the two categories of watercolor paints. Both D. Smith and Sennelier are excellent, artist-grade paints.
Sounds like you need find ways to keep your D. Smith paints hydrated, by using them on a more frequent basis, or keeping a small damp sponge in the close palette, or spritzing them and allowing them to rehydrate for 5-10 minutes before using.
How are paint particles getting from the well into the mixing area or other wells? Are you moving your palette from place to place before and after painting?
Sling paint,
VirgilSling paint,
Virgil Carter
http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/April 11, 2018 at 9:29 am #602894Janine~
I bought a Sennelier 12+6 tin for use as a travel palette, along with some empty 1/2 pans to bring it up to the 24 half pan capacity. I had heard about the stickiness of the tube paint and didn’t want the colors to migrate in transit. I have enough trouble with the damp American Journey paints after classes–I also end up ‘wearing what I paint’ lately, but that’s another issue!!
By the way, I haven’t had any problem with Mayan Blue getting rock hard, but my Viridian and FUM in DS are pretty solid. It takes a lot of prewetting to get them moving. I don’t notice any other reluctant paints. Maybe because I don’t fill my pans up completely, and am topping off regularly. Not the ‘watercolor way’ I know, but….
~ Carol
'We are too prone to engrave our trials on marble, and write our blessings in sand.' ~ Spurgeon
C&C appreciatedApril 11, 2018 at 9:34 am #602880Hi Carol,
I was also thinking of trying some other factory made Sennelier pans to avoid the whole sticky/tacky/runny problem of making my own. Do you like the way the premade pans rewet?
The AJ/DV paints do take some time to dry out; I’ve noticed that too which is probably why they rehydrate so well.
Topping off regularly IS the watercolor way. Wearing your paint as well.
If you don’t get dirty, then you didn’t have fun!I took a watercolor workshop (finally!!!) this past weekend. The instructor’s first bit of advice was to use soft paint if you want your work to be vibrant, either squeeze fresh paint if you’re working at home, or let your pans get really soft if you’re out and about. And top them off regularly with fresh paint from the tube.
He really emphasized not letting your paint get all dried out and crusty or trying to revive paint that’s been sitting around for years. I know people do it but that was what he told us. Since I like his paintings I plan to follow his advice.
YMMV, etc….
Janine
April 11, 2018 at 9:55 am #602895I really like the way they rewet, Janine. I either spritz or touch them with a wet brush and its ready to do its magic. Of course, I’m not that experienced in this whole genre, but I really like this set for travel. I also added several DS colors that I felt it needed (yellow ochre and all) and I have one Schminke 1/2 pan of turquoise that I couldn’t resist.
Good luck with your travel palette. Sounds like another new toy may be coming your way!
~ Carol
'We are too prone to engrave our trials on marble, and write our blessings in sand.' ~ Spurgeon
C&C appreciatedApril 11, 2018 at 10:02 am #602892I have not had this issue with DS paints, but with W&N I add a couple of drops of glycerin per half pan and it seems to resolve the issue with them crumbling.
April 11, 2018 at 11:27 am #602878Hi Jan. Unfortunately, I have had this trouble, too. It doesn’t happen very often and it seems to only happen to me with their FUM and Perm. Aliz. Crimson. Those little crumbs are terrible, because not only are they are there themselves, but they also drag a little comet tail of strong paint behind them. Letting the paints rehydrate longer and pulling out the crumbs is about all I have found to avoid this, and that doesn’t always work. It’s very annoying.
Noelle
April 11, 2018 at 1:50 pm #602882The drying and rehydration times vary with individual pigments. Some pigments stay moist longer and rehydrate more quickly than others.
Sling paint,
VirgilSling paint,
Virgil Carter
http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/April 11, 2018 at 2:54 pm #602888You are used to honey based paints.
Add glycerin, just a drop usually, but some need more drops. You do this just enough until it fixes the problem ( don’t add too much )
Honey and Glycerin are wetting agents. This means that when the paint is dry, these leave “holes” of some sort which water can penetrate easily. Without these the water can only hydrate the outer layer of your pan/cake. So these crumbs are where water is having trouble reaching. This is kind of Viridians natural state. When you add glycerin, it makes it so the paint is a lot easier to rewet.
You might have to take a stick/palette knife/stiff brush and really work the water into the paint, and break up any clumps. This can wreck your brush easily. You actually want your pans to be soft like tube paint, either by topping them off with fresh paint, or by wetting them and giving them a few minutes to soften all the way thru.
With my opaque paints when I am doing subtle tints, I usually put that first dab of paint down on a mixing surface, to make sure I have the pigment dispersed into the water. Otherwise they can ruin what I am working on by leaving a solid streak of pigment which stains the paper.
Honey also never really dries, it is itself kind of like tar, in that it can look like a solid, but behave like a liquid and drip or pour, it’s just going so slowly its hard to see. There is a really old experiment where they are timing how long solid tar takes to drip which has been going on for a long time, and it takes years between drips.
( If someone knows the chemistry / physics of how wetting agents like glycerin actually work I’d love to read about it, I kind of have a understanding based on hearsay at this point, and the “holes” idea is probably simplistic )
Brian T Meyer
My Site - Instagram[/url] - FacebookUseful links: Watercolor FAQs - Watercolor Handbook - Handprint - Listing of Watercolor Societies - Watercolor Guide (Pigment Listing)
April 11, 2018 at 4:59 pm #602897As I understood (from Handprint), Honey and Glycerin aren’t quite working the same way. Glycerin has an effect on Gum Arabic – makes it dissolve faster (plasticiser – decreases gum arabic viscosity) while Honey is just a humenctant (sucks in water and never dries).
There’s a difference between keeping the paint hydrated and making the vehicle ready to dissolve? Maybe there’s a chemist around to set this right…P.S. I know of the grycerin method from the Spin Doctor Youtube channel – he recommends adding 2 drops for organic and 3 for mineral pigments, letting the pan dry for at least 48h and not use immediately.
Sebastian.
(C&C Welcomed.)
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