Home Forums Explore Media Watercolor The Learning Zone A "moral" question, perhaps, on "copying" other watercolors … oh boy!

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  • #991501
    arlinek
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        :evil: Oh! I can imagine a tirade, of sorts, from others … but here goes. When I took my first multi-lesson classes for watercolor, the teacher often used a color-copied watercolor by some artist. We were to use that as a basis for “learning” techniques, etc. That was good for ME because I’ve always been pretty good at replicating something that I’ve seen – I only can draw a “stick-figure” just using my own imagination, but if I’m given a drawing to use in front of me, I can make an almost perfect rendition. Same for a watercolor. I either frame them for myself or for a friend. I get a lot of compliments and I am truly a beginner. Of course, I understand that I could never sell them since it was not from my own original work. So, is this “bad”?? Is this unethical? I find watercolors on the internet (they might be for sale, they might be just examples of various artist’s work) that I like and then truly duplicate them. Maybe I should have been a forger??? OMG, hope not! I’m truly not good at rendering anything without having a source to look out – no question about that. And, it’s a LOT easier and more attractive (the end result) for me when it’s an actual watercolor for full reference. So, if I show you all a ptg. or two that I’ve done under those conditions, and tell you I’ve replicated it from another artist, is that “okay”? Or, would I be shunned … lol?

        arline

        #1197974
        yellow_oxide
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            It depends on who you copied. Different countries have different rules for the length of time after an artist’s death needed for this, but there’s a ton of older art that’s considered “public domain.” There’s nothing to prevent you from selling something that’s not “original” as long as it’s not infringing on someone else’s rights. If you copy a watercolor from Joseph Turner, for example, he’s been dead far more than long enough for all his work to be public domain. You can do whatever you want with it. To be ethical though, if you were to sell a copy of his work, just tell them “this is a copy of a painting by Joseph Turner” and then it’s not forgery or whatever else.

            I don’t know about for watercolor, but at least for oil paint there’s a lot of catalogs that you can order hand painted copies of famous art. Some people want a “real painting” rather than a print, but don’t have a few million dollars laying around to buy the original work, so they can get one of those.

            All that said, and despite the fact that I sometimes copy old paintings for practice, what’s important to you as an artist should be your own artistic vision. Copying someone else is fine for practice, but you’re coping their vision, the thing that made their work “original.” If you don’t know what your own vision is then finding it should be your priority.

            #1198006
            arlinek
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                To further clarify, yellow oxide: I have NO intentions of selling anything – just displaying in my home or giving out to a friend/relative. Or, showing you members something that I’ve done or need help on. Most anything that I would be duplicating would be of a “current” nature and not an old classic.

                arline

                #1197975
                yellow_oxide
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                    I’m not really 100% clear on what is or isn’t protected by fair use laws. To be safe, pretty much anything I copy and intend even just to display is something I know to be in the public domain, unless I’m just copying the style or something like that. Something doesn’t have to be super old to be public domain. In some countries it’s just 70 years after the death of the artist, so anything by Monet (died 1926) would count.

                    Even if it is of a current artist, I would assume that there’s no problem if you’re just giving the painting to someone and not doing something like displaying it publicly, such as on the internet.

                    #1197992
                    briantmeyer
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                        If you are doing it for yourself ( learning ), it’s fair use. It’s a standard practice to copy better artists, and this is protected, it’s how artist traditionally learn. You cannot pass these off as your own work or use it commercially if it’s under copyright, and you want to mark on the piece the source image, the original artist and that it’s a copy/study of it. Putting it online can be an issues as they have robots that look for reproductions, but as long as it’s just given to close family and friends, it’s not going to get you into trouble. I think this forum has it’s own guidelines which wants to avoid this, because you don’t have a right to do that, but if you are just doing it to learn it’s clearly under fair use.

                        Make sure you are not working from stock photography unless you have receipts showing you have rights to reproduce the piece. Be careful of anything on the internet, the obama hope picture that was so famous was from an AP Press photo and they sued the artist. ( wrongly but a lawsuit is a mess, and he ended up paying them money because he tried to lie to the court )

                        If it’s an old master like Degas ( meaning old enough to be out of copy right – then I’d sign it “After Degas by Brian”, and also indicate this on the back with the original artists name, name of the picture, basically be very clear all you did was copy.

                        Frankly what they are having you do in that class is just the equivalent to copying old masters, so I doubt any artists would mind you signing it like they are an old master, especially if you are not selling them. I don’t think they want anyone to think the piece is their work, or that their work is your work and signing both names makes it clear what is going on. I would say you would be better off copying a real old master anyway.

                        #1197966
                        janinco
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                            #1198005
                            kinasi
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                                There is no reason you couldn’t copy another work, as long as it’s not for profit.

                                Copying things shows though, I’ve never seen a good work that was just a copy. It tends to lack spontaneity, but if it’s just for learning, who cares, as long as you manage to walk on your own feet after a while.

                                #1197960
                                maryinasia
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                                    For fun, I would suggest you paint a few paintings both from your own photos and from other’s paintings, learning to apply their techniques your own photos. Also paint outside, with a few landscape paintings to look at too. You might enjoy the satisfaction, and who knows where it might lead?

                                    #1197967
                                    janinco
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                                        Something that might help is loading a photo in an editing program that has settings for watercolor. That could give you some ideas without having to copy someone else’s work and you would be using your own reference photos.

                                        Here’s an example using FotoSketcher (free download):

                                        Reference Photo

                                        FotoSketcher

                                        Jan

                                        #1197947
                                        floyd
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                                            Studying and copying the work of Artists whose work you admire is a longstanding and legitimate way of learning. It is quite legal under the Fair Use provisions. At this point, you are not creating a product for sale, you are a student. This is also the point at which, while you are a student, that tracing or projecting is truly cheating, quite inconvenient when you are trying to make an exact copy of something, but then, it doesn’t matter, you are learning to draw too. Later, when you are on your own, creating a product for sale, it’s anything goes to nail the image, you use what you have available to make the best product you can, but your own images, or those of your client, not old masters.

                                            http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/20-Mar-2015/49857-signature.jpg https://www.facebook.com/myartpage

                                            #1197951
                                            indraneel
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                                                Well, for one thing, painting plein air is always more fun! Hopefully, you’ll copy less and less as you learn more and more. It’s also usually more satisfying to develop one’s own style, identity, individuality. Even master forgers probably have their own style, but only other forgers and cops would get to know that.

                                                That said, I’d guess copying watercolors would be close to impossible. If you’ve done that, we’d certainly like to see some.

                                                #1197935

                                                For teaching purposes I think this is legitimate. I often look at a painting and analyse how it has been done, what colours have been used etc.

                                                Of course commercial copying for sale is forbidden.

                                                Doug


                                                We must leave our mark on this world

                                                #1197977
                                                Scotslass
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                                                    Interesting to note in Jan’s first article link it states that legally, for a living artist with copyright, saying ‘after xxxx’ and stating it is a copy does NOT make it okay to copy and then display?

                                                    I have no more legal knowledge than anyone, and possibly less than many, but am I right in thinking the key thing is the display, as presumably there is nothing to stop anyone from using/copying any painting as an exercise ‘at home’ (and then putting it on their own wall?)

                                                    However – there is also nothing to stop anyone getting in touch with a living artist, explaining what you want to do and the use it would be put to, if it is going to be displayed at all (even if just displayed here?) and asking for permission? Even aside from the simply legal issue – I think you must also see this from the original artist’s side, who you must clearly respect or you wouldn’t be using their work to learn from…?

                                                    Please anyone correct me if my assumptions are wrong
                                                    Suzanne

                                                    #1197952
                                                    pjartwc
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                                                        I don’t think you are alone in copying anothers’ painting. I think we’ve all done it at least once. But, doesn’t it get boring? If, as you say, you can copy it pretty well, then you should take that knowledge and try to paint a SIMILAR painting on your own changing the reference (more than less) to make it your own.

                                                        C&C WELCOMED

                                                        Jan

                                                        #1197953
                                                        springbaby
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                                                            I would like to jump in here…my daughter who works in acrylic, was asked to reproduce a painting by the owner of the painting because two people in the family wanted this painting after grandma died. The name of the artist was not clear and could not be contacted. My daughter started to work on the painting (it was a friend and she felt obligated) but then went to a copyright workshop put on by an artists’ organization in her home province. She abandoned the painting and informed the friend that she would not do it because it would infringe on copyright…I think even when we give the painting away to a friend or relative that we lose control over where this painting ends up…better to contact the artist, if possible…

                                                            Gail

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