How do fixatives interact with oils?

[Carcharhinus]

Hi. I did a quick search on this and didn't find anything specific. Knowing my luck there's probably a 200 page thread that I missed though.

I'm recently back in to drawing in a bid to improve my oil paintings. I've been doing some pretty detailed graphite drawings and I seem to have a better handle on capturing light and value with pencil and charcoal than I do with paint. It's probably a psychological thing because I'm used to pencil rather than issues with the actual medium but I was considering trying a detailed underdrawing before I paint to see if it makes any difference to my grasp of light and shadow.

Anyway, I'd obviously need some kind of fixative or workable fixative for this to avoid the dreaded (and maybe mythological) graphite bleed. To be honest, using an 8B pencil for parts of it, I can't see how that wouldn't get in to the painting somehow.

My issue with fixative is that, although many brands offer sprays that can apparently be painted over, it seems like either there would be a film between the painting surface and the oils that could eventually delaminate or the fixative would dissolve and get in to my paint. Just seems like fixatives wouldn't be archival. Are most of them resin based or is there all kinds of rubbish in the can?

Is my gut feeling right, or is there some kind of chemical reaction happening that makes it all ok?

[Freesail]

To set your charcoal drawings just use cheap hair spray.

[KingCrimson]

I use pencil for just basic placement or outlines, no detail or shading, and spray with workable fixative, and have never had a problem with it "migrating" or showing through. And I usually paint thinly. If you're going to do a detailed underdrawing with large patches of shadowing, I think if you took it outside and blew it off, then lightly brushed it off with a large soft brush you would be fine with fixative. You just don't want any large amounts of loose graphite particles left when you spray.

[jbart]

I have used spray fixatives to set my sketches prior to painting in oils or acrylics. A light spray is all that is needed to keep them from smudging and dissolving.

[Tonalist]

I've also used a fixative to spray over my charcoal drawings on canvas..
I used to do this back in the early eighties.. I still have some of the paintings
and there is no disastrious effect so far..

I'm sure some people will tell you never use it.. but if you have to wipe your canvas clean of oil paint.. you'll still have your drawing uneffected.

woody

[WFMartin]

Personally, I don't believe in applying any sort of "isolating layers" so early in the process of an oil painting. It seems to me to be just another "layer" that may not be totally compatible with oil paint, and I refuse to invite such unknown factors into my work.

I don't know whether or not to be concerned with the migrating of graphite, but I also don't believe in tempting fate, so I don't use graphite to draw under an oil painting. I know several good, traditional, oil painters who swear by the migrating of graphite, or "strike-through", as it is known, and that's good enough for me.

I use charcoal for sketching on canvas, and transferring an image to the canvas, and that works very well for my purposes. There's nothing in charcoal that doesn't exist in Ivory Black paint, and it is extremely compatible with oil paint.

I don't ever use fixatives, or isolating layers, composed of anything that isn't oil paint. But, then,....I don't draw on the canvas with any material for which I feel an isolating layer is necessary.

[DAK723]

There's an old saying among pastel users - "If you want to keep the art conservators in business - use hair spray as your fixative."

There is a fairly new fixative that is casein based, non-toxic and - at least in it's description - recommended for using to seal your drawing before oil painting. It's called Spectrafix and some info can be found here:

http://www.spectrafix.com/howto.html

Don

[mmdm]

This isn't an answer to your original question, but I wonder if you have considered doing a tonal underpainting in just one neutral color of oil or acrylic, to get your values placed? Or you could do a value study in pencil on paper first, then use that as a reference for your painting in color.

[karenlee]

In line with mmdm's respopnse, I wonder if you might enjoy drawing on canvas with an oil wash, using a nice round springy sable. You can mix yourself a transparent black using ultramarine blue and a transparent red or brown oxide (a transparent PR 101 or PR 102 pigment will work). A transparent black lets you make a lovely toned wash underpainting. You won't need any fixative or isolating layer.

[Freesail]

Originally Posted by DAK723

There's an old saying among pastel users - "If you want to keep the art conservators in business - use hair spray as your fixative."

Here I was thinking I was in the oil painting forum and not pastels ......

[lovin art]

Here I was thinking I was in the oil painting forum and not pastels ......

And your Meaning by this, I think for the most part Don is answering the question dont you Paul !!!..... ~Sorry dont get what this comment has to do with the original poster's question ...

Which I wanted to touch on .I LIKE READING that your wanting to draw better that cant be stressed enough when learning to paint better for the most part it will make you a much better Artist -.. why not try just using a thin~ish turps wash to draw your underpainting in with as you dont need any fixitives then ...just try it...Yes Im on my soap box and Yes for the most part its how Im taught at school how most Traditional art schools look at fundamentals... make sure you use a nice strong flat for this or even a round if you like ....

[Freesail]

Originally Posted by lovin art

And your Meaning by this, I think for the most part Don is answering the question dont you Paul !!!..... ~Sorry dont get what this comment has to do with the original poster's question ...

.

Nope Sandra I don't, how about explaining what you mean this time in English. We're talking about charcoal drawings for an oil painting, not pastels.

The use of hair spray to fix a charcoal drawing was first told to me by an instructor at the Arts Student League of New York. I have never seen the need to fix a drawing to be painted over.

[lovin art]

Why do you think I suggested not using fixitive and just trying straight paint in the first place ... And Im just fine in using English , you on the other hand need to learn to curb your sarcasm for the most part .... And yep I'm gone on that fudged note - it's all yours !!

[Lorenz]

The initial question of this thread ist interesting for me, too. I have used fixative spray (resin-based plus alcohol) and clear acrylic spray (cheap stuff) on pencil drawings and on pastel "underpaintings". It felt perfectly good, esp. the acrylic spray made a fine surface for oils. But I have no idea if the painting will peel off in, say, 500 years...
Basically resins and oils seem to be perfect brothers in arms. No compatibility problems. Wehlte writes in his fat book that oil painting has gradually been developing into oil-resin painting.

I hope somebody has the answer because I find it a pain in the a.. when I see smudges of charcoal or similar mixing into my oil paint!

Oh, by the way, I saw a painting in a museum a few weeks ago with "bleeding through" pencil drawing. (Unfortunately I cannot remember the painter or the title.) So it really seems to be a topic to seal off drawings before painting over them...

[DAK723]

Originally Posted by Freesail

The use of hair spray to fix a charcoal drawing was first told to me by an instructor at the Arts Student League of New York. I have never seen the need to fix a drawing to be painted over.

Hair Spray has probably been used as a fixative for as long as there has been hair spray! Even today, many will recommend its use - including art instructors, who in the opinion of conservators, should know better. Its use as a fixative is very common and it probably won't make your painting fall apart. In many ways, it is similar to whether you decide to use hardware store turps or vegetable oil from the grocery store, in that it is not an art material and may contain ingredients that you don't want in your painting.

From about.com (which actually states that it might be fine to use):

Also, be forewarned that many hairsprays contain hair conditioners, which is usually another name for a natural or synthetic oil. These conditioners could leave grease spots on your art. The oils to avoid are dimethicone, silicone (anyone pretty much), anything 'oil' or 'lubricant', vitamin A or E (both are oil-based), anything ending with 'glycol'. Be wary of anything listed as a plant extract.

I'm guessing that you don't want these ingredients in your painting. And based upon what many long time fixative users have advised on "other" forums - hairspray is not acid-free or archival, and it often yellows and discolors over time. These may or may not be factors to consider.

Don