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Old 10-05-2011, 06:43 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Thanks for the comments, Larry - I'll probably do a variation of that painting with your guidelines in mind in the future!

With the Monet painting, I had not thought of the diagonal lines of the grass, but now that you point it out, it makes sense. Same with the cloud breaks - the strong distant light adds interest. I didn't see that at all - thanks!
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:42 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarrySeiler
You picked a good one here, Matthew! I think something else though. That weight is so heavy on the left...and the small figure nearly equally positioned from the central vertical divide that I think several other things are happening. Not so sure the individual by itself is enough...but note how the values of the grasses are slated so as to create a diagonal leading up to the figure lower left....that contrasts broken in the sky work to pull the eye over, but really...I think most important is that bit of break in the clouds Monet suggests with that sliver of brilliant high chroma warm color in the distance, (circled)...



This is becoming a great exercise...and hopefully everyone will find themselves playing with their own compositions a bit more!! Very good!!!



Also the red color of the flowers helps the balance, am I right?

ted
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:13 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

I really enjoyed the class yesterday. I have marked the image with comments about the composition.

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File Type: pdf Composition Homework Assignment.pdf (166.0 KB, 40 views)
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:06 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

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Originally Posted by painterted
Also the red color of the flowers helps the balance, am I right?

ted

yes...as a complementary color to the predominant green, it absolutely works that way. Good eye, Ted...

further, I imagine this was as I taught last night too...not necessarily thought out as a strategic device by Monet. Chances are it was his knowledge based foundations and experience in the form of a gut hunch. Probably just felt right to him. For reasons we can analyze, we can see his hunch played out.

What is important for those wanting to become better painters is not "hope" for good hunches and just let whatever happens happen. If I can convince folks that good design, good composition is important...then understand that you invest the effort now to enjoy what comes worthy trusting years down the road as sound intuition, or gut hunch.

Make it happen now...for good sound reason. In time you'll look back at a work that flowed out of you, hear someone ask you about it and realize, "dang...those good choices came out of me, didn't they! Wow!"
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:16 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Susie...glad you pulled this off!

I think you have such a strong compelling subject in that lighthouse that you are asking the smaller lower right circled area a lot to provide that balance. That little greenish mass and its chroma (color purity and saturation) and its value..is not altogether that much different from the same above. It lacks the distinction to call enough attention to itself IMO (in my opinion) to fully balance asymmetrically.

Now on the other hand, were the lighthouse nearer to crossing the central vertical divide going more to the upper right, being so strong a compelling image to look at both by color, (its juxtaposition of possessing inherent variation), and the lower circled mass to the opposite left side, that I think might better visually balance..
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:57 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment



These are two images by Monet that i really admire. Trying to do as Larry said and figure out what it is that draws me into the painting that i like. How is it balanced and pleasing to the eye. I really tried to keep these things in mind. The Roches Noires Hotel really grabbed my attention with the long dark shadow on the right. It was neither disturbing or confusing because of the lighter area opposite. This shadow, i think helps to draw the eye through the painting. Hopefully I am on track here..lol
The second painting is very similar in that the darker area of water leads the eye through the painting. the dark green mass top right is balanced by the lighter lilies in the opposite corner.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:46 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Here is one I've always liked a lot by the late Marlin Linville. I am never sure exactly where the eye is "supposed" to enter the picture, or the exact route it takes, but I see this basically as a circular pattern, with the eye entering at around mid left, following the water down to the dark pool, then along the lower edge of the rock to the light bush at the base, following then either along the edge of the rock or the branches farther up and bridging to the evergreen, which leads to the stream where it enters the picture, and following that back around to the rock.

I think it could also be seen a a "Z", coming down the hill to the stream, and following that. The large rock is balanced by the rocky bank on the upper left, and the the trees on the upper right by the dark pool on the left.



Dan
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:17 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Hi Larry - I want to thank you for the lesson you gave - really enjoyed it a lot. Trying to improve the paintings I do and chose to analyze one I had done before I just read that you would like us to look at the Masters paintings. I spent quite a bit of time on trying to analyze the following I hope you don't mind my posting it. I will research a Master painting tomorrow and post it.

First painting in color - in Acrylic - "After the Run"



Discarded the color and made the lines for the 3rds




Looked for the Focal Point




Looked for the balance




Tried to decided how the eye flowed around the painting




Looked for the planes - pulling the painting apart to do so
Plane 1



Plane 2




Plane 3



Plane 4




I believe the colors work as well as gradation but I think I should have faded the background out more to achieve a greater depth. Most likely there is a lot more that can be done with this painting but I'm at a loss as to what it is.

More analysis forthcoming on one of the Master's painting - I did struggle with the computer program trying to accomplish what I posted. Thanks again for your lesson.

Barbara
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Old 10-06-2011, 03:07 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment



This is a photo I took that I would like to paint one day. I've always loved the photo but didn't know why. Now I can see: Asymmetry, gradation, direction (circle) and contrast.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks for your wonderful class and all the information I'm trying to process.
Sharon
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:38 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

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Originally Posted by graphxgal


These are two images by Monet that i really admire.



Here's the skill set I'm trying to get folks to imitate or try to show some growing sense of. Just a simple index card and sharpie...squinting the eye and detecting the elements most responsible for attracting and then directing/holding the viewer's eye.

turn it on its side...look for obvious signs of symmetry or asymmetry, envision the rule of 3rd's and see if a major focal point is not responsible for recalling the eye to itself again and again.

Turning the first Monet piece on its side...it became more apparent to me than seeing it normal...where the eye leads into the picture, and how the elements lead the eye.

In the second Monet...to be honest, I think this one is a weaker design on his part. Perhaps in his day without blueray, television, cable, billboards and cultural image bombardment such works may have been revolutionary. But by today's standard there's nothing too earth shattering IMO...nothing dynamic. Its lack of a real punch might be psychologically calming or relaxing, which may hae been the intent, and sure that works. Myself, today I would likely stray from such.

You are correct seeing the "S" lead in...
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:51 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dharma_bum
Here is one I've always liked a lot by the late Marlin Linville. I am never sure exactly where the eye is "supposed" to enter the picture, or the exact route it takes, but I see this basically as a circular pattern, with the eye entering at around mid left, following the water down to the dark pool, then along the lower edge of the rock to the light bush at the base, following then either along the edge of the rock or the branches farther up and bridging to the evergreen, which leads to the stream where it enters the picture, and following that back around to the rock.

I think it could also be seen a a "Z", coming down the hill to the stream, and following that. The large rock is balanced by the rocky bank on the upper left, and the the trees on the upper right by the dark pool on the left.



Dan

some good observations Dan...

here too are simple index card/sharpie sketches...



Its interesting that something insignificant as a small darker shaped value carries power to support visual weight and sway for the eye...

The painting while filled with a lot of supposed detail, information...is really founded on some simple underlying design.
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:56 AM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

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Originally Posted by Tresgatos
H



I did struggle with the computer program trying to accomplish what I posted. Thanks again for your lesson.

Barbara

Hey Barbara...what I want folks to know is that you could carry some index cards and a sharpie in your pocket going to a major art museum, and in the course of a couple hours have a good pocketful of studies or breakdowns of competition. It really doesn't take the computer...



What I'd like you to see in this design is that too many players are cast in the narrative drama, too many given a voice. It comes back to that idea that where everything is shouting nothing is heard.

One rule of thumb is the 2/3's rule...which is..one-third is a neutral resting area for the eyes...two-thirds area of interest, or vice versa...2/3's resting area for eyes (nothing much happening...) and 1/3rd positive elements.

In other words too busy...and your elements circling the elephant are somewhat I believe distracting...again, competing. I would simplify with values, and breaking such up. De-emphasize some things.

Here is basically what is happening...squint your eyes and its fairly plain to see...that elements are circling the elephant...and having far too much a role in the narrative. And squinting my eyes...that little small tree you are hoping plays a role as a fulcrum countering balance for asymmetry is hardly detectable. You are asking a role it is being out performed by all else.




My intent isn't to be discouraging...but honest. Trying to push...ask everyone here to stretch themselves.

I can tell you having competed in a good number of state stamp design competitions such as Duck stamps, or Salmon stamps...etc., that the pile of entrees sit up on a desk and judges sit facing the table.

One by one the pieces are held up...and the judges hold something like a yes stick/card and a no...and if there are seven judges (for example) and four hold up yes...it survives to go on to the next round. On and on til what remains are the top ten...

The artists might spend 40-80 hours making a design, but in this initial process it gets held up and seen for probably about 10-15 seconds.

What that means is...as an artist you have to come to learn what it is judges are looking for. Drama, clarity, anatomical correctness, narrative, contrast in color and values that just grabs you and says WOW! But...the impression this is attained hits the judges near immediately.

now...let's substitute "judges" for "joe public" and their seeing over 30,000 images just in one half hour television show. The modern individual is an expert at TUNING OUT...and we are trying our level best to dismantle that natural inclination. Use some "wow" or "X" Factor!

so...we begin by avoiding shooting ourselves in the foot. Nothing that is distracting or competes. Enough supporting cast to be convincing...

Next, I'll give you a quick sketch what I think might work better here...
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

here is a quick pencil sketch of one possibility...

Ordinarily when I do wildlife...I'll do twenty-thirty sketches. Often I'll cut studies of the subject (in this case the elephant) out of newsprint...and with tape I can move things around until I find the most ideal presentation...



The elephant lies prominently in the rule of third junctures, takes a role as the heavy weight in asymmetry, the distance allows me to play with values and color to create a sense of depth illusion and contrasts of values that won't compete with the elephant...and so forth.

hope that helps...
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:20 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

The photo I chose comes from the Ref Library of WC. It show large vs small in the bushes as well as light/dark. Thanks, Cali
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:45 PM
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Re: Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

Hi all,



Thought I'd give this a try. A Monet from the image gallery on WC http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/show...p?photo=121152

Getting close with this? The white markings are the light/dark balances. The symmetry most closely resembles the O to me. Time to review.

I choose this one because it was not as obvious to me as some of the others I'd viewed. Help would be really appreciated.
gini
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