Need Help Please

guillot · #1 02-17-2003, 01:23 PM

Hi everyone in the Composition Forum!!

I really need some help on this one. I'm kind of putting myself out there. I'm doing a painting of one of my daughters. She's sitting on a piano bench, piano in the background. Now that I've gotten things laid out on canvas, the bench appears to be leaning forward, and I'm not happy with that, my reference shot even has the bench at this angle. So, I thought maybe I could just eliminate the legs on the bench, so that it appears she's sitting on something else. Do you think that this is fixable and workable as a composition?

Compositions are not my strong area folks

Any help would be great appreciated.

The colors that you see here are part of my underpainting just in case someone has a question pertaining to that.

TY,
Tina

henrik · #2 02-17-2003, 01:51 PM

Do you have a reference photo? In case you want to do it as in the photo, but something looks off now...

guillot · #3 02-17-2003, 02:41 PM

Thank you henrik, Yes, I'll post the photo. I took the silly thing at an angle. Probably shouldn't have done that. Excuse the clutter in the background pretty please.

I know, it does look off. I've had it sitting on the easel for a day, and stopped right there. I was hoping I could just eliminate the bench and piano in some kind of effort to straighten it out because I love the pose so much, Thanks for your wonderful help!! It is greatly appreciated.

Here's the photo ref:

Tina

guillot · #4 02-17-2003, 05:21 PM

This is fairly rough, but gives some direction I'm thinking of going to eliminate the problem with the bench and all. I'm not great with my photopaint tool, so please excuse all of that mess, but maybe you can see where I'm trying to get at anyway.

Thanks for all the help!! Or, I could just always wipe the canvas off before it becomes too dry and start all over. this is kind of embarrassing you know

Tina

henrik · #5 02-17-2003, 06:51 PM

I kind of liked the perspective in the photo; you do have to get the measures right. In your scetch the bench is slightly wider, and the leftmost leg (our left) and rightmost leg are a bit short.

In your painting - the girl is compressed (or I should say the white area where she is supposed to be is compressed heightwise) - the feet should be lower and the head higher.

Have three edits in progression - here is the first...

henrik · #6 02-17-2003, 06:51 PM

henrik · #7 02-17-2003, 06:52 PM

#3
(which I like the best - it is the simplest).

guillot · #8 02-17-2003, 08:21 PM

Hi henrik, Wow, agree, I love the last one myself. Why didn't I think of putting music on the lyre? How absent-minded of me

I see what you mean also about the compression. I'll wipe this canvas clean and start over

No hassels in that, and thank you so very much for the help!!

Tina

madster · #9 02-21-2003, 01:07 PM

The basic problem is that the camera was tilted when the photo was taken, so everything is off-kilter.
Using photoshop, I leveled the picture, using the piano as a grounding point, as it is the largest horozontal plane in the image.
Once that was done, the bench stopped its crazy tilt (as did the piano, which was leaning over also...) and then cropped the image back to a basic rectangle.
I don't know if this helps or not, but it does make a difference visually...

wnabors · #10 02-26-2003, 09:30 AM

Hi...composition can be a problem...I'm not that great at the subject myself but here is a way of looking at your foto...

follow the line of the subject's vision and draw a line in space along that vector. I like where she is currently placed in the canvas space so far.. so that problem is already solved for now.
Next, consider the major lines lines that might be formed by limb placement ..what I worked with was...the line along the outside of her right thigh to her right knee...then extend that vector to the edges of the canvas. That intersection gives you a focal point..
I marked it with a white dot...after that you can consider rules of human composition like lines thru the shoulders an hips remembering that they are usually anteverted...(lines drawn along those vectors will intersect..) the remember that for a human to balance and not fall over the back of her head will be over the lower spine [her butt..(sorry)] if she's sitting...and over her heels if she's standing...
There.. that should either REALLY mess you up..or my genius has solved your problem...I also would consider overlaying the whole image with a grid to help get all her pieces in approximately correct placement....hehehee...I'd be really interested to see how this works out!

rd2ruin · #11 02-28-2003, 07:21 PM

I've been doing a lot of excersizes over the past couple weeks about these implied lines that wnabors is talking about. I cleaned up his example, and added some other places where you can use implied lines to direct your viewer to the focal point.

It's tough to get real composition from a slice of life photo, but you can make small modifications while keeping a realistic look.

wnabors' original lines are the thicker blue ones. I've suggested tilting the head slightly back instead of forward to match her jawline up with the focal point, scootched her left leg a little more to the left and raised her left arm a little to get on another line to the focal.

The yellow lines suggest a second focal point, where you may want to add something else. In my example, I've scribbled in a metronome along one of the lines, with the meter pointing toward the focal point. Just something to give it a little movement. For the secondary focal, you dont necessarily need something exactly there, but the natural lines will pull you there anyway.

The green line shows where she's looking, the blue line shows where that will be if the head is tilted back, straight into the focal point wnabors identified. I've always been one to believe that surrendering a little realism for composition goes a long way to making a more attractive painting (unless, of course, you are going for flat out realism... )

For another example of how implied lines are used, check out how I broke down Wyeth's "Christina's World" http://www.mindspring.com/~motlasz/pictures/chris.jpg and my ridiculous implied line study of a Degas painting http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...threadid=90485

Cheers!
- Greg

rd2ruin · #12 02-28-2003, 07:22 PM

oops. .... forgot to attach

Bendyweed · #13 03-02-2003, 05:27 PM

Could she be seated on a porch swing? Good luck.

WFMartin · #14 03-03-2003, 11:44 AM

Tina,

I think Madster has the answer.

No matter what the perspective, the upright legs on the bench, or any furniture, should be exactly vertical, and not slanted. I think if you make the furniture legs perfectly vertical, things will look better.

Bill

Keith Russell · #15 03-05-2003, 12:06 AM

Greetings:

The perspective on the bench legs suggest architecture (and vertigo) to me. They could be extended to the point that it would appear she is way up in the air. Below her, the background could be the rooftops of shorter buildings.

Give her wings, and the painting takes on an additional layer of meaning...

Keith.

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