Greens are good for you?

[magnuscanis]

In my watercolour palette I have a couple of greens - Viridian and sap green (actually I've just taken that one out to make way for Cerulean blue). I usually try to mix up greens using yellow and blue though, as it's more fun and gives some nice results (as well as some fairly horrible ones).

I've managed to get a fair approximation to sap green, which is why I'm happy to leave it out of my palette. However, I've never yet managed to mix a green which approaches viridian in its brilliance. Admittedly, it's usually a little too vivid for most applications, but it would still be quite useful to have access to that kind of green occasionally. Is it possible or feasible to mix that kind of green and if so what starting colours would I need?

The blues and yellows I currently have on my palette are: cerulean, ultramarine, Prussian blue, indigo; cadmium yellow, lemon yellow.

[WFMartin]

Originally posted by magnuscanis
In my watercolour palette I have a couple of greens - Viridian and sap green (actually I've just taken that one out to make way for Cerulean blue). I usually try to mix up greens using yellow and blue though, as it's more fun and gives some nice results (as well as some fairly horrible ones).

I've managed to get a fair approximation to sap green, which is why I'm happy to leave it out of my palette. However, I've never yet managed to mix a green which approaches viridian in its brilliance. Admittedly, it's usually a little too vivid for most applications, but it would still be quite useful to have access to that kind of green occasionally. Is it possible or feasible to mix that kind of green and if so what starting colours would I need?

The blues and yellows I currently have on my palette are: cerulean, ultramarine, Prussian blue, indigo; cadmium yellow, lemon yellow.

You should do just fine with the yellows that you have. Get some Pthalo Blue. It's the closest color to cyan that I've found, and cyan and yellow make a fairly pure green. Hope that helps.

Bill

[magnuscanis]

Thanks for the advice, Bill.

I'm not sure whether Phthalo blue is available in the Cotman colours I use at the moment, but I seem to recall that there's a phthalo blue in my old set of Reeves watercolour tubes which I can try out before (if necessary) buying more expensive pans.

If I keep the 4 blues I have in my palette (which has 12 slots for half pans), and add Phthalo blue I'd have quite a strong bias towards the blues. Actually, I've got a half pan of cobalt blue as well, which I took out because it looked too similar to ultramarine. Maybe I should go for a 50% blue palette?

It occurs to me, now that I know marginally more about paints and colour theory than I did when I got my paintbox, that ultramarine and cobalt blue may give quite different results on mixing, even if they do look similar on their own. Any thoughts?

[WFMartin]

Magnuscanis,

Your goal in selecting a "blue" for mixing with a yellow to produce a green would be to choose a blue with very little "red" in it. For example, Ultramarine would be a poor choice (because it is skewed toward red), cobalt would be the next best choice ( because it has slightly less red cast), and pthalo blue would be the best (because it has the least red cast).

This, of course, is based upon the assumption that you are trying to achieve a bright, clean green. If you are a seeking a more subdued, dirtier, more natural green, Ultramarine and Cobalt might be appropriate choices after all.

I believe my pthalo blue is Winsor Newton. Cotman, by the way is considered student grade version of Winsor Newton, and I would really recommend the artist grade of Winsor Newton. I'm not much of a Cotman fan. When I began watercolor painting, it was with Cotman, and gave it up several times as a lost cause. When I switched to professional quality paint (W/N, Holbein, and Senellier) it opened a new world of capabilities for me. Big difference!

I have not dealt with pan watercolors. Only the tube types.

Bill

[magnuscanis]

Thanks again Bill.

Presumably by the same token I'd want to use lemon yellow rather than cadmium yellow if I want a nice bright green? At least, it looks to me like the lemon yellow is the cooler of the two.

Similarly if I want nice purples (which I do - and I don't have any ready made ones in my palette just now) I should presumably aim for a nice red blue (ultramarine being the obvious choice) and a blue red (eg. alizarin crimson)?

I take your point about artist and student quality watercolours. At the moment I can't really afford to buy a whole new set of paints, but I might see about getting a pan or a tube of Winsor blue (or another artists quality phthalo blue) anyway, and begin building my collection slowly. Presumably I'd want Winsor blue (green shade) if my main aim is to mix nice greens with it.

- Magnus

[DuhVinci]

Mixing yellows and blues is fun and often gives interesting results. another way of getting interesting mixed greens is to start with a tube green, like viridan, and add yellows or blues to that. You could even try a touch of sienna or other earth color to see how it tones down and adjusts the tube green.

[Patrick1]

Originally posted by magnuscanis

Presumably by the same token I'd want to use lemon yellow rather than cadmium yellow if I want a nice bright green?

Cadmium lemon or hansa yellow light/lemon yellow (PY 3) are good yellows for mixing clean greens...better than cad yellow medium or deep.

Similarly if I want nice purples (which I do - and I don't have any ready made ones in my palette just now) I should presumably aim for a nice red blue (ultramarine being the obvious choice) and a blue red (eg. alizarin crimson)?

Yes...ultramarine blue is the best blue for mixing purples. French Ultramarine is a bit redder, thus better than 'regular' ultramarine blue for mixing purples.

As a blueish red, alizarin crimson is just okay. The best choice for mixing purples is, to my knowledge, quinacridone magenta (PR 122). Quinacridone violet (PV 19) is another very good choice. Quinacridone rose (PV 19) is a good choice, though less blueish.

Presumably I'd want Winsor blue (green shade) if my main aim is to mix nice greens with it.

Yes. Or phthalo cyan, if you can find it.

Here's what I've found from experimentation:

-using phthalo blue GS + hansa lemon yellow (PY 3) I get a green that is slightly less intense than phthalo green YS or BS.

-using quinacridone magenta + ultramarine blue I got a purple very close (almost indistinguishably)
to dioxazine purple.

[JeffG]

Originally posted by magnuscanis

I'm not sure whether Phthalo blue is available in the Cotman colours I use at the moment,

Winsor blue is probably the same as Pthalo blue, green shade, but check first. I agree that if you want to mix a Viridian or Pthalo green, you'll find a pthalo blue necessary.

[magnuscanis]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Presumably those numbers like PY 3 are the standard reference numbers for the pigments used? I think the W/N colour charts I have use a different set of numbers for their paints (more like 123, etc.) but I seem to recall seeing the PY 3 form on the paint labels. I assume also that different manufacturers using the same pigment should produce essentially the same colour paint even if it's called something different, although I guess there would be some minor differences due to different processes/proportions of medium etc.

[Einion]

Originally posted by magnuscanis
I've never yet managed to mix a green which approaches viridian in its brilliance.

As I mentioned in the "Show us your palette..." thread your Viridian is a hue - Phthalo Green BS. This is the most intense of all pigment greens so it's specific nature is not achievable with a mix. You can mix the same hue of course, but not with the same chroma. The mix Patrick suggests I can attest to, the most vibrant mixed green one can get are very likely to be from PY3 and PB15:3 - Azo Yellow Light and Phthalo Blue GS. The Cotman Lemon Yellow Hue won't give results as good and you'll have to watch the strength of the blue against the yellow.

Incidentally if you did need to mix a good substitute for the real Viridian a mix of Phthalo Green BS with Dioxazine Purple is very close and a touch more of the violet will yield a colour similar to Prussian Blue.

Originally posted by magnuscanis
I'm not sure whether Phthalo blue is available in the Cotman colours I use at the moment,

Intense Blue in Cotman is one of the phthalo blues but is probably the red shade. It won't give the same results as Phthalo Blue GS but they're still pretty decent. In Winsor & Newton's artists' watercolours you'll want Winsor Blue Green Shade.

Originally posted by magnuscanis
Actually, I've got a half pan of cobalt blue as well, which I took out because it looked too similar to ultramarine.

Well spotted, the Cotman colour is a hue, based on Ultramarine cut with Zinc/Barium White.

Originally posted by magnuscanis
It occurs to me, now that I know marginally more about paints and colour theory than I did when I got my paintbox, that ultramarine and cobalt blue may give quite different results on mixing, even if they do look similar on their own.

The hue will work as though there was a small amount of white added, obviously, but other than that probably almost exactly the same (it may not use the same Ultramarine pigment although it's likely). The real Cobalt Blue will generally mix pretty differently from Ultramarine, in the W&N artists' example the difference would be especially marked because of their particular example.

Your Alizarin Crimson Hue and Ultramarine should give decent mixed violets, certainly good enough for landscape work. The artists' version of Permanent Alizarin Crimson uses the same pigments and with French Ultramarine they do, especially at the red end.

I see you're aware of the Handprint site so it's worth checking out the brand recommendations and colour breakdowns, there is no better watercolour resource. Hilary Page's Guide to Watercolor Paints is also a good read.

As a closing comment you should be careful with the naming of your colours as the 'hue' part is as important as the rest of the name is most cases. The other colours you listed in your first post that are hues are Cerulean Blue Hue (also made from a phthalo pigment) and Cadmium Yellow Hue (a mix of two synthetic organic yellows).

Originally posted by DuhVinci
...another way of getting interesting mixed greens is to start with a tube green, like viridan, and add yellows or blues to that. You could even try a touch of sienna or other earth color to see how it tones down and adjusts the tube green...

Yes, particularly if you need a lot of greens, this is a good reason to have a green on the palette that one can use as a fixed starting point to mix from.

You can do much the same thing if you're careful by mixing the green yourself but it's more work and generally not as precise, plus you loose a bit on saturation over a single-pigment colour although that's not necessarily a terrible thing especially in light of all the convenience greens available.

Hope it helps,
Einion

[Einion]

Originally posted by magnuscanis
Presumably those numbers like PY 3 are the standard reference numbers for the pigments used?

These are the colour index names I mentioned in the other thread.

Originally posted by magnuscanis
I assume also that different manufacturers using the same pigment should produce essentially the same colour paint even if it's called something different, although I guess there would be some minor differences

They can be nearly identical but equally there can be marked differences as you'll see.

Einion

[LarrySeiler]

This was a major issue for me a couple years ago when I happened upon a rock structure hanging over Lake Superior called, "Castle Rock"...and since it was part of the national lakeshore...decided to paint it.

The clarity of the water, the sands beneath had that the Bahamas Island's green... and no yellow or blue I had could approximate it. I picked up Viridian, and Grumbacher's Green and was able then to do the picture justice.

Normally...I prefer to mix or suggest my greens...but in this case, I was held hostage, and the ransom required a special green!

Larry

[magnuscanis]

Wow, thanks for that comprehensive, information-packed answer, Einion.

I went out and got myself a tube of Winsor Blue GS, and managed to get some quite reasonable results mixing it with the Cotman lemon yellow hue (I take your point about the importance of "hue" in the name ). My entry for the watercolour triad challenge project contains some of the greens I mixed with these two colours.

Eventually I hope to upgrade entirely to artists quality colours, but I'll need to spend some time working through the handprint website (and some useful threads I've found here at WC) before I settle on a palette.

Presumably the same basic considerations would hold for other types of paint (I currently dabble in acrylics too)? Obviously the names of the paints, and possibly some of the actual pigments would vary.

[magnuscanis]

Originally posted by lseiler

Normally...I prefer to mix or suggest my greens...but in this case, I was held hostage, and the ransom required a special green!

The danger I've found with using ready made greens is that it's too easy to just use the colour straight as an approximation to whatever green I'm trying to paint. There are occasions, such as the one you describe, where the premixed colour is just right and it would be too difficult to try mixing the same colour. Otherwise the main use I can see for palette greens is to have a consistent base point for further mixing, as DuhVinci suggested.

Incidentally, I was just beginning to think that I understood the principals of colour theory using the split primary palette when I discovered several other suggested fundamental palettes, some of which include green as a primary colour. I know green (rather than yellow) is a primary in photography, and I've never been sure why. Now it seems that the red, yellow, blue primary palette (with warm and cool versions of each), which I always assumed was THE basis of painting colours, is just one possible approach and not necessarily the best.

[LarrySeiler]

there are a number of thinkers/artists that believe in a five primary color system.

However, going back to that old art ed definition of what a primary is...is that no two colors can mix it. Two primaries making a secondary and so on...

all of course as theory. Yet these dadblasted pigments are not light waves but earth minerals and what not and seem to have a mind of their own. A theory as a premise to work with is instrumental, but we have to develop a good sense of when to ignore them, venture out and experiment..and so on.

Even with the veridian...I could not use it without a tint...or perhaps a bit of color to control it.

Secondly...with all the plein air painting I do in northern Wisconsin...I find that the greens are vast ...some subtle...some quite in your face rich and full. I have more success I think suggesting greens than actually painting them directly. Leaning on a bit of help from the viewer's imagination to read between the lines and think they see more than I'm actually painting. Their forced interaction causes more "life" to be felt from the work.

I find the color I place next to an area I want to read as green perhaps even more important.

interesting thread...

Larry