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Old 07-02-2010, 11:34 PM
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LKrieger LKrieger is offline
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substitute for brown madder?

I have subscribed to PaintPal and she uses Brown Madder a lot. I have looked at handprint but am having difficulty figuring out what to substitute, maybe burnt sienna? Any suggestions?
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:44 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Hi Lois
Teh W&N Brown Madder is a Quinacridone pigment.
The closest matches in hue are Venesian Red, then Light Red and then Burnt Sienna, though all these are either Synthetic or natural iron oxide. So though they look similar, their physical properties would differ.
Venesian Red is almost identical in hue, but if you have none other then Burnt Sienna will work just great!
Enjoy!
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:14 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

I've been using Brown Madder for over 20 years and I've yet to uncover a substitute. Combined with Antwerp Blue, I find it produces a variety of cool grays I find invaluable in mixing with other colours. When starting any new project, the first thing I do is mix up a strong pure colour in the well closest to either colour, then combine them to form my basic dark gray. Mind you, that's an individual preference and it doesn't make it "right", just the way I work and from personal experience over the years it works for me. Brown Madder is a work-horse colour in my palette, as is Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue. I'm sure many others do just as well with other favourites, and the problem with taking too many workshops is you seem to acquire a drawer full of exotic colours you rarely use when you get back to your own studio!

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Old 07-03-2010, 03:46 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Lois,
I agree with John. Brown Madder is a beautiful color unlike any of my other colors. It would be worth your while to buy a tube just to experience it and learn to use it in your paintings.

Burnt Sienna has a more orange cast to it than Brown Madder. Its # is
PR 206 which is the same as WN Permanent Alizarin Crimson, but they look nothing alike. One site I looked at said this about brown madder: An alizarin crimson and diarylide yellow mix, but my tube of WN said it is a single pigment #PR206.

John, That is a terrific suggestion about mixing up a gray from two of the colors in your painting right off the bat when you start a painting so it is readily available.

Sylvia
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

It depends... are you going to use BM unmixed?, for dulling warm pigments? for graying blue hues...? for landscapes, for flesh tones?

Every historic fugitive pigment have some useful replacement in the modern chemistry.

WN Permanent Alizarin Crimson is PR N/A+ PR206..
WN Brown Madder is only PR206
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Old 07-04-2010, 05:30 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Carlos,

According to Winsor & Newton's watercolor chart, this is their description for both colors:
Quote:
Color name: Permanent Alizarin Crimson
Color number/code: 466
Series number: 3
Chemical description: Quinacridone pyrrolidone, Quinacridone
Color index name: - , PR 206
Color index number: - 73920
Permanence rating: A - Permanent

and


Color name: Brown Madder
Color number/code: 056
Series number: 1
Chemical description: Quinacridone
Color index name: PR 206
Color index number: 73920
Permanence rating: A - Permanent
ASTM lightfastness rating: N/L

According to this, there is no problem with either one being fugitive any longer.

Sylvia
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Old 07-04-2010, 06:16 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

W/N Light Red is very close in hue, more opaque
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:21 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Thanks everyone. I decided to go ahead and order some Brown Madder.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:17 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Has anyone tried mixing Burnt Umber with Alizarin to get a near match ??
June
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:26 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

I know that brown madder is one of Shirley Trevena's favorite paint colors, and she describes it in one of her books as being "blood red."

Personally, I think June's suggestion to mix burnt umber and permanent alizarin crimson could result in a pretty close match.

Susan
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:21 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Daniel Smith's Quinacridone Burnt Scarlet is also PR 206. The pigment is called quinacridone maroon.
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:56 AM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

You won't regret to go to Brown Madder, mix it with blues, especially with Ultramarine, it'll give you beautiful range of purple grays. It's very versatile. You can use it as pure hue or as a great mixer. My advice, go for it.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:53 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DN Manel
You won't regret to go to Brown Madder, mix it with blues, especially with Ultramarine, it'll give you beautiful range of purple grays. It's very versatile. You can use it as pure hue or as a great mixer. My advice, go for it.

Well, maybe he will regret in some years when the madder fades...
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:16 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Carlos,
Check out the Permanence Rating below for Brown Madder. This is from Winsor & Newton's site about their paints:

Quote:
Color name: Brown Madder
Color number/code: 056
Series number: 1
Chemical description: Quinacridone
Color index name: PR 206
Color index number: 73920
Permanence rating: A - Permanent
ASTM lightfastness rating: N/L

To me, that indicates that it will not fade as it used to do in earlier times.

Sylvia
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:23 PM
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Re: substitute for brown madder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by painterbear
Carlos,
Check out the Permanence Rating below for Brown Madder. This is from Winsor & Newton's site about their paints:



To me, that indicates that it will not fade as it used to do in earlier times.

Sylvia

Oh i wasnt talking about WN Brown Madder i was talking about original Brown Madder....otherwise i did not get the initial question... why looking for a substitute of a Permanent Brown Madder like the one WN makes?
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