What is copying?

[!ngridh]

OK this is a subject that we wrestle with, so I ask you...in this poll to define what is copying...hey monkey see monkey do...
I have seen recently some nice beads on ebay that have a rather unique look to them. I could tell by looking at them how to make them and I have. Really cool technique not shared with me by the maker.
When the first bead maker made a round bead....was everyone else copying him/her? When someone comes up with a new idea that you can tell how they made it from just looking at it...does that mean you can't do the same thing?

If someone finds a great new color combo for the harlequin bead or a great variation to it...to do that also are you copying...or

If you make beads of the exact same technique and colors etc..
is that copying? Let's weigh in on this topic...because I know there are a lot of hurt feeling about being copied. Frankly once you post something on the internet you should realize it is out there for all the world to see and you WILL BE COPIED.
Now just because I figured out how this person made the bead and will make some with that technique...doesn't mean I will tell everyone else how I did it...I have enough respect for the beadmaker not to do that...right?
so lets answer this poll and see where we stand ;-)

[ValorieCox]

All of the above. Not in a bad way, mind you, I just didn't see any which didn't seem to define the word 'copying'.

Val

[Mark Wilson]

art takes on a life of its own once it is created. if you keep the design in your head, then it is protected. once you make an art piece, other people get it in their heads as well, and people will make copies. that is reality. if you can make it better, or cheaper than someone else, then you will sell more.

[!ngridh]

well said mark!

[!ngridh]

this one is poorly worded.

/creating someone's concept, design and name for the bead(s)
change that to:
change creating to )
making a bead that is another bead makers concept design and using the same name for the bead..sorry

[Gail Boo]

!ngridh, This is such a hard question to answer but we can spend lots of time mulling it over. I find it offensive to "copy", meaning in my mind an exact replica of someones elses bead and then try to market them. However, I have attempted to copy someones bead as a learning experience, I must say that I seldom got it exact. Those beads are forever mine and if anyone else sees them I explain their origin. If I like the outcome I will twist the design, color, something to then make it my own. When I was in college learning to be an Art teacher often a proffesor would have us copy a master so that we learned a technique or approach to a specific problem. We have to strive to put our own spin, personality, and uniqueness into our art - beadmaking. Bottom line, copying can be a learning tool but should stop there.
Hope my ramblings make sense, Gail

[LLuvia Brito]

Personally I like trying to make soft glass beads I see in Borosilicate, its a great way to challenge myself and learn about the glass, so is this an offensive type of copying? My beads rarely turn out anything like the soft glass versions, but the intent is still there. I just don't feel its a bad type of copying because of how much is learned.

At the same time I've always hated the feeling that I came up with a certain design, knowing I might run into close copies eventually, but really its just the way it works. If you make anything that people like, others will be influenced!

I don't think anyone owns certain color combinations, or realistic nature items. The problem I see is, what if say Pam Dugger(just an example since she gets closest to real looking), makes the most realistic clown fish and say this bead couldn't get any closer to nature. Then someone comes along and they love clown fish and want to make a realistic one, will it be copying?

[PeggyK]

I have often wondered about this question too. I have seen beads that I have tried to copy...or at least try to figure out how they were made. I think if a person posts pics of their work.........it is a given that someone will try to copy it. I really don't think this is a bad thing. I believe its how we learn how to mix colors, techniques, and shapes. As for me, when I try to made a bead that I have seen online, I make it a little different. Sometimes on purpose.......sometimes not. lol I see it as a learning tool. I haven't gotten good enough to copy someone elses work and have it turn out just like the bead I saw online. PeggyK



my ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll... DME:B:LC:US:1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll... DME:B:LC:US:1

[godzilla]

I feel like I could endorse more than one choice...even some which seem dichotomous. On the one hand, we learn by copying. We are programmed to do it- most of what babies learn, they learn by imitation- the internal life doesn't really kick in, until it has a framework or context....and that context frequently produces situaions where many people arrive at the same original idea at the same time (science is full of examples of same, and on more than one occasion, the Nobel committee has awarded the prize to more than one person for the same unique idea). So then, if the idea arose from a social or physical context, is it original or derivative- and can we seperate these (i'm tempted here to follow the example of one of my teachers, Masao Abe, who would go on to ask, and what per4cent is original and what percent derivative ?

Anything one produces by hand will have aspects which are unique as the work will always take on our personal quirks.

Does intent determine what we call it? Say, if someone sets out to make a copy (forgery)?

Maybe the line is drawn at how we treat a work or idea which is not our own. Some acknowledge the source of the inspiration; a teacher who demonstrated a technique...some treat it as their own. Some will use it to practice and learn or polish technique, some will sell their replicas.

Where do you put artists like Warhol and Du Champs?

I think that a big piece of this is that art is about more than technique (which is why some artists freely share their techniques).

and I'll stop here, 'cause I'm starting to ramble (I've spent 25 years or so discussing this topic on the creativity and creative problem solving list)
Aloha,
Elise

[!ngridh]

you all are saved...my seven page essay got lost between upload and the thread.

There are a lot of great points here. We all learn my copying.
Not one of us creates in a vacuum. Being copied is flattering.
(sometimes painful but it is still flattering...really you may be pi$$ed as hell but it is flattering...) And any creative person would go nuts making the exact same thing over and over...
so we are always moving on to new things ...new things for others to attempt to recreate...and in their efforts they will find new approaches...and we will have moved on to other things too.
NOT one person here is a one trick pony. Consciously or UN consciously we have those images swirling around in our heads and it will pop back out at the torch. I really don't think that many people honestly just copy...they will just be playing someone else's composition and never their own and their work will become stale.

I really like the dialogue we started here. It looks like most of us really dont see imitation as copying but step along the road to learing and developing our own style...and how many of us are going to learn a technique and sayyyok I am done...will make this forever?

What sparked this question for me is that Mary Ann Williams has some beads posted...At first I thought her technique was accomplished one way and then realized that I was wrong ...and then made the beads last night. I plan on making those beads ...not now...will give her time to move on...and will give her credit for the style...but I am going to make those beads...and I would NOT share how I did them...out of respect for her...but imgunnamakadosebeadies~

we travel over many paths on our way to our own and that will become someone else's and we will both travel on our own paths from that point ;-) copying is boring work!

[ilee]

I have been thinking about this a lot recently. I started thinking about it in relation to beads but I think this idea of copying relates to many areas of life.

I think another aspect to the idea of copying has to do with self identity. Most of us live in a culture that is very centered around things. We identify ourselves by our things. In the case of beads, if you come up with a really great technique your identity can become wrapped up in that one thing. If someone copies it, you may feel that your identity has been taken from you. It no longer belongs just to you, and that can feel very demoralizing. The more you define yourself by the product of your work, the worse it feels. If we focused less on the product and more on the process, I think copying would be less of an issue. No matter how often your work is copied, no one can take from you the knowledge that you can create something beautiful. There are different feelings when you create something from your own vision or successfully reproduce someone else's. I believe that the first is always more satisfying.

Having said all that, I do think that there can be harm in forging someone else's work. The harm is done to the forger as well as the creator. If you only or even mostly copy others works, you don't allow your own vision and creativity to emerge.

Ilee

!ngrid, I like this poll but, it's just not that clear cut.

I think when someone has a very unique style then any replica thereof is copying and it is not right. And simply changing the color or in this case the type of glass still makes it copying (in a bad way) no matter how you look at it.

I don't think that a color varation of a well known technique, i.e, harlequin beads is copying.

It will be interesting to see how this poll and this thread develops.
Betty

[Jennifer Geldard]

I think sometimes it's important to remember what our
intentions are when we create...
is it to make money? If so, then one would have an entirely different viewpoint on copying and how you'd feel if you were copied.
You'd have a very large need to try to protect your investment of time and money. Which is completely understandable.
Even though I'm blessed to be making money with my glass work, my first priority is to the creative process and the JOY of doing glass.
In that pure state, what someone else does has nothing to do with my process and exploration, and shouldn't worry me.
If I am working only to sell a product and my living is dependent
apon my "signature work", it can be very painful to have someone bypass my hard "work" and go right to the glory.
My biggest struggle is to make my "work" remain "play".
And to keep growing and changing. If I can manage to do that,
copying will never be a problem, because I will have been able to
be constantly going beyond those who might want to profit
by skipping the exploring step. Hopefully I can try to be always one step ahead. To me one of the definitions of art is putting a piece of your soul out into the world .
Personally, I'd rather be playing with glass and doing a little soul searching than stand in line at a patent office.

ps: I couldn't choose one of the above as none seemed to fit for me.

[Beth Myers]

Thanks for posting this thread Ingridh.
You are always insightful.
All the above is right on track to my thinking, now here is
my thumbnail take on this.
25 years of working as an Artist, college, traditional art training has given me the opportunity to argue and debate this in great depth. And what I personally have come up with is.....It happens!
For 84,000 reasons, it happens. And it is suppose to happen. It is a good thing. Like love, it confuses, might hurt, brings joy and is natural.
My own view is this: There is some sort of cosmic synergy that works as a collage of sorts, layer on layer of human ideas and design. Sights, sounds, colors, taste, everything we do flies out into this sticky collage and adhears, becoming part of the whole. Making reality what it is. Forms the walls of our world. We all contribute. Now, my Grandfather used to say, "there is nothing new under the sun" I agree. We just draw from the collage and reinvent. And I feel if you believe otherwise, you have not had much life experience.
As artist what we blow out onto this canvas or collage belongs to the whole, everyone, for all time. We don't own it or have rights to it. (Hard for some of us after working so hard on a concept, however, I think to have peace with being copied you have to understand it.
Bear with me here, please.
I am gonna shift a bit.
How many of you have worked on (I will limit this to beads) a set of beads and the next day, see on ebay or posted somewhere a set that is so similar you just stare wide eyed! This happens to me alot, even down to names being too close for comfort. A freak of natures collage, has to be, happen to me alot and there is no explanation for me except the sticky collage theory. We are all influenced from this "cosmic synergy thingy".
I have posted beads on ebay and found someone else has almost the same thing and in shock I email them and say, sorry, I was not copying you, bla bla bla and they always laugh and say....hey I know.....no problem. STILL....what a weird thing.
Forgive the length here....thanks for listening.
As always,
Beth

[anasazistudios]

I agree with you Beth. There is nothing new under the sun. I just make what I feel like making and not worry about the rest as I want to focus my creative energies on what I am doing rather than worry about what everyone else is doing.

Elizabeth