Why not use cheap acrylics?

[mollynix]

I use anything from VERY expensive to cheap..cheap. If I see a colour in the Dollar Store acrylics that I like..I buy it. I mix them with everything. The craft acrylics are especially handy when you require thin paint for a specific application.

[Nilesh]

Originally Posted by ArtistPete

I agree. I'm going by my own experience. I haven't seen any evidence of yellowing, fading, cracking...anything in 15 y.o. liquid acrylic paintings I've done on many different surfaces. Of course, I use a sealer which probably doesn't hurt.

That's interesting to hear. I had thought of doing the same thing. If I may ask, what is the procedure and what type or types of sealers do you use?

Also, have you been using certain brands of paint? (I would be interested in hearing which brand or brands have been working well.)

It might also be worth highlighting the fact that they are sometimes being used in thin, liquid applications, something like watercolor. In such cases, it might be less important to have a strong film of dried acrylic paint (compared with cases involving painting styles that use thicker layers). And sealing them at the end would tend to add some integrity.

Also, the surface or substrate would play a role.

[oldradagast]

Generally, I recommend that one at least uses paints where you know what is in them. That would typically mean a good student grade or higher. Why? Because if you don't really know what is in a given paint - its pigment information, for example - it can be very hard to use it properly in a painting. With color theory and accurately labeled paints, one can get a good feel for what one is getting in the tube and what one can do with it. With a generic pot of "blue" paint, you don't really know what you're getting. How will it mix? Can it be used for skies/water/etc. without problems? There's no way to tell without spending extra money looking for a cheap substitute for a tube of properly labeled higher-grade paint in a known pigment.

I think it's better to buy fewer tubes of higher quality paints and go with a limited palette vs. buying a lot of tubes of craft-grade paint and hoping that they will behave as expected.

Another point to consider is consistency. With higher quality paints, once you find a pigment that you like, odds are it will stick around in an unchanged form for years, if not a decade or more. If you like Winsor and Newton's Cerulean Blue for your skies, you can probably be sure that you'll like it forever. With craft paint, who knows what you're getting: not only can there be greater variation between different batches of paint, but the manufacturer has no real interest in keeping the paint's performance the same: so long as the "blue" paint is generally blue, the rest (to them) doesn't matter. So, they can end up changing the paint's mixing characteristics and you won't know until you learn the hard way in the middle of a painting.

I understand the cost issue and I'm not saying that one should go out and buy nothing but the top of the line paints, but at least stick with companies that produce "artist grade paint" even if it is student grade, and only buy pigments that you know what is in them so that there is an incentive on the part of the company to keep that pigment the same and if they DO change it, you'll know.

Finally, if cost is a real hurdle, you can look for "hues" of more costly colors, such as Cerulean Blue Hue vs. Cerulean Blue. While the hues are generally not as pure or versatile as the original pigment, they are still made to artist's standards and can thus be trusted to perform consistently, IMHO.

[ArtistPete]

Originally Posted by Nilesh

That's interesting to hear. I had thought of doing the same thing. If I may ask, what is the procedure and what type or types of sealers do you use?

Also, have you been using certain brands of paint? (I would be interested in hearing which brand or brands have been working well.)

It might also be worth highlighting the fact that they are sometimes being used in thin, liquid applications, something like watercolor. In such cases, it might be less important to have a strong film of dried acrylic paint (compared with cases involving painting styles that use thicker layers). And sealing them at the end would tend to add some integrity.

Also, the surface or substrate would play a role.

Americana-Decoart, AppleBarrel are some brands I've used. And you're correct-I thin them down and apply similar to watercolor. I layer thin tranparent rather than applying thick opaque. Maybe that's why I haven't had any bad experiences with these paints. I mix many different colors on my pallete to get the appropriate hue.
I've used these paints on masonite, canvas, metal, and feathers. I seal each work with 2 coats of either matte or gloss finish acrylic sealer in an aerosol can.

[Nilesh]

Thanks for the interesting reply.

Maybe when there is a good mix of multiple pigments, the absence of a strong degree of lightfastness in one or two of them is not as noticeable -- it probably wouldn't be as noticeable as it would be if it were just one pigment or two pigments involved....

And some of these paints probably use the same pigments as those used in artists' acrylics -- the 'series 1' pigments in artists' acrylics are inexpensive enough to be used in these other paints as well. So some of the colors are likely to be fine in lightfastness.

I suppose there are tests (basic chemical tests, for example) to determine whether a certain pigment is in a certain paint -- and some of these tests are probably fairly simple to do.

And it would be possible to do one's own lightfastness testing.

Still, it seems worth considering something like Nova Colors, if cost is the main concern. They have a similar consistency, but use known pigments and binders, and have known lightfastness ratings. On the other hand, there may be circumstances in which the craft paints would have their own appeal.

[Foxyheart2002]

OK, I'm looking at my paints here for lightfastness. I buy what color I need, not what brand it is, remember.

W&N Galeria, not cheap, Cad red Hue and Cad Yellow Pale Hue, no lightfastness listed, but says Permanence A. They are "Flow Formula" whatever that means.
Liquitex Basics (cheap cheap cheap) Alizarin Crimson. Lightfastness 1 - ***. In factg all my Basics are Lightfastness 1.
Grumbacher, Academy, not too cheap, Yellow Ochre Light Hue, Lightfastness 1 - Excellent.

So, cheap is not all that bad since it says lightfastness 1 (excellent) on the Basics. You do not have to always go with expensive to get good paint in my opinion.

[Nilesh]

Originally Posted by Foxyheart2002

...So, cheap is not all that bad since it says lightfastness 1 (excellent) on the Basics. You do not have to always go with expensive to get good paint in my opinion.

I agree with that.

Quality student paints do exist, and some of them list pigments and lightfastness ratings. There is another category of paints, though -- what might be called 'craft acrylics' -- and they are rather different. They rarely list pigments or lightfastness, and it seems a bit up in the air just what you are getting. Some are better than others (both in terms of pigments and lightfastness, and in terms of fillers and binders and paint film quality).

[*dee*]

I haven't tried any of the upper-most price range paints.

But I started out at the bottom. My first experience with a better grade of paint was when I needed more white (Liquitex Basic). I decided then that as I needed to replace a color I would "up-grade". I really like their heavy bodied paints. I like the way it feels, covers & looks. Even though I almost always "paint thin", I like the heavier bodied paints...a little bit goes a loooong way.


There isn't much choice in brands of paints locally (and I'm NOT even talking about my town...or county ). If I could buy upper-most price range paints locally, I would be trying them.

I haven't sold many paintings, but I'm not doing this for the profit. I'm doing it because I enjoy it...so profit isn't even a consideration to me. But I do want to do the best job I can with them.

But, I do have three grandchildren who love what I do. The paintings I give away are given to people I care about. Maybe they WILL all end up in an attic somewhere. But maybe someday they will be dragged back down out of that attic and hung. I'd like them to look good. Or at least be salvageable.

So even though I have used the cheaper alternatives, I wouldn't again...unless I had to. But I don't think I'm "snobby" about it. I just think that, in the long run, that I'm getting more for my money now that I've "up-graded" a bit.

[ourcassidy!]

Matthew your point about consistency is well taken. However I must disagree with your statment that said :

"With craft paint, who knows what you're getting: not only can there be greater variation between different batches of paint, but the manufacturer has no real interest in keeping the paint's performance the same: so long as the "blue" paint is generally blue, the rest (to them) doesn't matter. So, they can end up changing the paint's mixing characteristics and you won't know until you learn the hard way in the middle of a painting."[/i]

I believe the manufacturer has great interest in keeping the paints performance the same! I also disagree that somehow because we are talking craft paints here the manufacturers think blue no matter what form is blue. You seem to imply that because it is "Craft" the manufacturers lack knowledge and education about such things! I hardly think that ths case. The artist, painter, crafters most often are well educated on the subject as well and certainly demands consistency in the product they use just as the fine artist does. Do all...of course not...but then again neither do all "fine" artist...

I do agree that lightfast is a major issue no matter the product, acrylics, oils, watercolor etc...and I agree that I want my work to last...I am like others here in that I use the paint that seems to work either in color or consistency/texture for the project I am doing.

Like most things in life there is room for more than one way to do things I guess.

Pam

[laudesan]

Originally Posted by Nilesh

I agree with that.

Quality student paints do exist, and some of them list pigments and lightfastness ratings. .

Yes, they do, and Chromacryl is one of them, so is Mont Marte Silver Series. These are the only two I use besides my beloved M.Grahams.

[ArtistPete]

Originally Posted by ourcassidy!

Matthew your point about consistency is well taken. However I must disagree with your statment that said :

"With craft paint, who knows what you're getting: not only can there be greater variation between different batches of paint, but the manufacturer has no real interest in keeping the paint's performance the same: so long as the "blue" paint is generally blue, the rest (to them) doesn't matter. So, they can end up changing the paint's mixing characteristics and you won't know until you learn the hard way in the middle of a painting."[/i]

I believe the manufacturer has great interest in keeping the paints performance the same! I also disagree that somehow because we are talking craft paints here the manufacturers think blue no matter what form is blue. You seem to imply that because it is "Craft" the manufacturers lack knowledge and education about such things! I hardly think that ths case. The artist, painter, crafters most often are well educated on the subject as well and certainly demands consistency in the product they use just as the fine artist does. Do all...of course not...but then again neither do all "fine" artist...

I do agree that lightfast is a major issue no matter the product, acrylics, oils, watercolor etc...and I agree that I want my work to last...I am like others here in that I use the paint that seems to work either in color or consistency/texture for the project I am doing.

Like most things in life there is room for more than one way to do things I guess.

Pam

Great post Pam.

[oldradagast]

Originally Posted by ourcassidy!

Matthew your point about consistency is well taken. However I must disagree with your statment that said :

"With craft paint, who knows what you're getting: not only can there be greater variation between different batches of paint, but the manufacturer has no real interest in keeping the paint's performance the same: so long as the "blue" paint is generally blue, the rest (to them) doesn't matter. So, they can end up changing the paint's mixing characteristics and you won't know until you learn the hard way in the middle of a painting."[/i]

I believe the manufacturer has great interest in keeping the paints performance the same! I also disagree that somehow because we are talking craft paints here the manufacturers think blue no matter what form is blue. You seem to imply that because it is "Craft" the manufacturers lack knowledge and education about such things! I hardly think that ths case. The artist, painter, crafters most often are well educated on the subject as well and certainly demands consistency in the product they use just as the fine artist does. Do all...of course not...but then again neither do all "fine" artist...

I do agree that lightfast is a major issue no matter the product, acrylics, oils, watercolor etc...and I agree that I want my work to last...I am like others here in that I use the paint that seems to work either in color or consistency/texture for the project I am doing.

Like most things in life there is room for more than one way to do things I guess.

Pam

Point well taken: There definitely are companies who produce consistent craft paints because they care about that consistency in the same way that companies that produce "artist grade" paints care about their product. Some of them may even be produced by the same companies (an interesting question for those who are experienced with craft paints.)

I don't know what the odds are of having quality issues or unexpected formula changes with craft paints (maybe they are very low - somebody with experience in that field would have to speak up about it), but the consistency of the artist-grade paints is one reason why I buy them: I know that a tube of one color in a given series will probably stay that way as long as that series is around.

To make a long story short: make sure you know what you're buying since even if it *looks* cheap, a tube or pot of very cheap paint that isn't really useful for any painting isn't cheap at all. But the same can be said for buying a tube of really expensive, high quality paint that doesn't really work for anything you paint.

[ourcassidy!]

ArtistPete, thanks!


Matthew...thanks for the considerate post. Appreciate your reply. I as well don't know exactly what the companies produce and by what standards, but I do know that take for instance Delta Paints...(produce cream coat paints)...are part of a $6 Billion company and that doesn't happen by producing inferior product...Deco Americana is a privately held company so I don't know what their $$ figures are, but I do know they produce a very fine product...The coverage is good, the flow is nice...I don't know about the lightfast issues...but as I said I have a piece outside for 12+ years that hasn't faded...pretty good example...

I agree...know what you are buying...

Thanks, Pam

[Einion]

Originally Posted by aspenman

You don't use cheap paints or cheap substraights or cheap brushes because they are CHEAP!

We're not the Art Police, we should post our opinions as opinions.

Originally Posted by Artchrispy

Someone should do a lightfast test on some of the craft acrylics by masking half a painting and leaving that painting on their vehicle dashboard for a week.

A week is not nearly long enough. I ran my own lightfastness tests for about two years.

Of course if any paint did show fading after only a week's exposure it would be catastrophically bad but generally it would require months at least even somewhere with full-time direct sunlight.

Originally Posted by ArtistPete

Until I experience something negative using liquid acrylics I will continue to use them. My experience with them over the years trumps any negative opinion. Until I witness any cracking, yellowing, fading, etc. or anything negative I'll continue to use them.

Okay, so are independent test results enough or do you need to see the results firsthand?

Originally Posted by ArtistPete

I'll continue to use my acrylic sealer I buy at Walmart--not through an artsy-fartsy supply store.

Is it removable?

Originally Posted by Nilesh

Another aspect is the lack of full disclosure. With the craft paints, you usually don't even know what pigments are being used -- they just don't tell you. Bruce MacEvoy and others recommend simply not buying paints that don't provide this information on the label.

Good point; relates to a something I found yesterday.

In reply to this question:

I'm taking painting classes, and the teacher is using acrylic craft paint on canvas. He swears this paint lasts and that he's used them on his paintings for years with no trouble. I'm not convinced. Is this kind of paint all right to use?

Mark Gottsegen answered:

The answer depends partly on which craft paint you want to use—there are some of fairly high quality. But as a general rule I wouldn't want to use the average craft paint to make art I might want to exhibit or sell. On the whole, these paints aren't up to artists' standards.

One sign of the quality of these paints is to check the label. Does the manufacturer list the pigment(s) in the paint, using both the common name and Color Index Name? The Color Index Name is a universal code used for identifying colors, consisting of the type of dye or pigment used to make the paint, the general hue and an assigned number. For example, zinc white's Color Index Name is PW4. The letter P means "pigment," W stands for "white," and 4 is the specific number assigned to the pigment.

Next, make sure the pigment's lightfastness, or resistance to light, is listed and that the vehicle (a medium such as linseed oil or an acrylic dispersion that binds the pigment) is identified. If the above requirements are met, then you may have found a quality craft paint. If there's just a color name, like Jolly Blue, with no lightfastness or specific vehicle mentioned, then beware of your materials.

I wasn't previously aware that DecoArt made another acrylic line, Traditions, and it's interesting comparing how they themselves refer to each product. They do state on both products' pages that they are lightfast (although they stress it a little more for Traditions) however there's no information provided in either case that I could see.

Einion

[connievanwinssen]

When I say I use cheap paints. I mainly mean Talens Amsterdam. I always buy the 1 litre jars.(10 euro for 1 litre) They list pigments and lightfastness ratings. I think it's a very good studentgrade paint. I've also used Golden, liquitex, W&N, Ara, and you name it. I find them to be no better then the Amsterdam. So why buy expensive paints then? The same goes for brushes.