WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Watermedia
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply  
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 08-17-2009, 02:33 PM
rue d'oak's Avatar
rue d'oak rue d'oak is offline
Moderator
San Francisco
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,026
 
Hails from United States
Question Binder difference in watercolor pencils, water soluble crayons/pastels?

A question got raised in another thread about the technical difference between watercolor pencils and watercolor crayons / pastels. The specific product raising the question is Neocolor II's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliedawg

Does anyone out there know for certain if the composition of the colour component in watercolour pencils is different from the Neocolor II pastels in any meaningful way?


So I thought I would make a thread to bring attention to this!

FIRST though, I want to show concrete proof that Neocolor II were at one time named and marketed as CRAYONS.



They are now called WAX PASTELS.



My personal theory is that it is all marketing, whether it be to expand into the pastel art market or because crayons, at least in the U.S. are things children use.

There is stunningly little online defining the difference in the binder of watercolor pencils vs crayons. Likely this is seen as proprietary information (product formulas and ingredients) and so little is publicly available.

And just to make it more confusing, there are some water soluble pastels that are a more true pastel, than than the Neocolor II's. A few years ago for a demo thread over in the Watercolor Learning Zone, I did a little experiment comparing two brands of water soluble crayon and one brand of water soluble pastel (post #17)

What I think we can agree on is that the Neocolors are a softer, waxier product -- call it crayon or pastel -- than a watercolor pencil. I do notice that the pastels/crayons tend to be called water soluble, as opposed to the pencils which use the term watercolor. Or does anyone out there have products differently labeled?

My use of watercolor pencils makes me think that the "lead" of the pencil is akin to pan or cake watercolor. But this may be the wrong assumption.

So back to the original question: What is the technical difference in the binders used in watercolor pencils vs water soluble crayon? And as Walter (charliedawd) suggests, what is meaningful in the difference?

Jen
__________________
Jennifer Landau
Proud to be published in Art Quilting Studio magazine, Winter 2014 and 2013 and Summer 2013. Come visit in Fiber Art !
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 08-17-2009, 05:40 PM
hoakley hoakley is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 774
 
Re: Binder difference in watercolor pencils, water soluble crayons/pastels?

Jen,

According to Mark Gottsegen, ordinary wax crayons are simply pigments or dyes in paraffin and stearic acid wax. In English-speaking countries, the word 'crayon' tends to be associated with such products, rather than fine art materials, so for marketing purposes European firms that may in their home (non-English) markets be happy with the term, are now realising that success in the US and UK will be associated with more up-market terms, like wax pastels.

Water-soluble wax pastels (or whatever) are pigment in a water-soluble (or -dispersible) wax binder. They handle like a hard oil pastel in the dry, but will dissolve or disperse when water is added, allowing washes etc. as you might using solvent with a conventional oil pastel. Caran d'Ache also, of course, make conventional (and very good) oil pastels too.

Watercolour pencils can use water-soluble dispersions of oil, soluble soaps, and fatty acids, but can instead use a water-gum binder, more like watercolours. However they are considerably harder, and as a pencil are encased in a wooden sleeve. So some can be closely related to water-soluble wax pastels, others more to watercolour paints.

Howard.
__________________
There is no place for prejudice, insult, or taboo in open discussion; instead use evidence, objectivity, and reason.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 08-17-2009, 10:00 PM
rue d'oak's Avatar
rue d'oak rue d'oak is offline
Moderator
San Francisco
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,026
 
Hails from United States
Re: Binder difference in watercolor pencils, water soluble crayons/pastels?

Howard,
I much appreciate the reply! It is the feeling of the water-gum binder that gives the association I have with pan watercolors and watercolor pencils. Yes, I can see that in countries where crayons are not seen as a fine art material, the use of wax pastel might garner more serious attention.

Jen
__________________
Jennifer Landau
Proud to be published in Art Quilting Studio magazine, Winter 2014 and 2013 and Summer 2013. Come visit in Fiber Art !
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 08-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Lyta's Avatar
Lyta Lyta is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,233
 
Hails from Germany
Re: Binder difference in watercolor pencils, water soluble crayons/pastels?

Interesting info, Howard! Thanks for posting.

Jen... Since some brands in general and Caran D'Ache in particular make both great watercolour cp and op, you should perhaps just contact them and see if they can give away any info on the ingredients they use. If you do, let us know what they said!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:16 PM
charliedawg's Avatar
charliedawg charliedawg is offline
Lord of the Arts
St Andrews, Scotland
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,521
 
Hails from Scotland
Re: Binder difference in watercolor pencils, water soluble crayons/pastels?

Hi Lyta

I contacted Caran D'Ache by e-mail yesterday - no response so far
__________________
Happy painting
Walter
http://www.walterwatsonart.com
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:05 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.