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Old 05-26-2007, 04:46 PM
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Exclamation Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Lead Antimonate is a tin pigment.
Lead antimonate yellow is not a tin pigment and does not contain tin. It is an oxide of compound of lead and atimony.
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Old 05-26-2007, 05:04 PM
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Exclamation Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Quote:
Originally Posted by APCenter
Any way you slice it, genuine vermillion is a problem pigment. You're gonna play the devil producing a paint that uses real mercuric sulfide that handles well and still manages to be lightfast. Not to mention that it is quite toxic...
Both points about vermilion are incorrect. While this is often stated as a matter of fact by many artists, the research and the evidence does not prove it.

Lightfastness of Vermilion
Vermilion is not a fugitive color, but has a reputation for being lightfast despite the urban legends to the contrary. Vermilion (inorganic, red mercuric sulfide, PR106, Colour Index number 77766) is listed in ASTM D 4302 with a lightfastness category of I in oil and resin-oil.

Gettens noted that "it is remarkably unreactive with other pigments" (Gettens & Sterner, 1941). Some authorities in the past did not consider it to be a "permanent" pigment, because specimens have been known to darken. Numerous examples in paintings, nevertheless, testify to its stability, and samples have been observed to withstand exposure to sunlight for at least ten years (Eibner, 1926). Tests made according to ASTM D 4236 the standard for lightfastness resulted in rating it at the highest category of lightfastness.

The darkening observed in some specimens of vermilion has been attributed to impurities in the digestion liquor used to make vermilion with the "wet" process, which may lead to the instability of the red form of mercuric sulfide to revert to the black form. The native mineral, cinnabar, is not susceptible to such reactions. Rublev Vermilion from Natural Pigments is made in China with the "dry" process, which is known to make a stable form of mercuric sulfide (Gettens, 1993).

Toxicity of Vermilion
In regards to its tixicity, some vermilion compounds do not represent the health risk once thought. Recent results of toxicology testing of Rublev vermilion and cinnabar dry powder pigments bear this out. These are historical pigments that are compounds of red mercuric sulfide (HgS). The former is the synthetic pigment and the latter is the natural mineral. Their hues and undertones are unmatched by any modern equivalent pigments, such as cadmium red.

An independent laboratory tested the pigments for soluble mercury and lead metals, according to method ASTM D5517-03 in which a sample is placed in a dilute solution of hydrochloric acid, which is the method accepted for simulating the acids found in the human stomach and the principal route of entry of these metals.

The test results are less than 20 µg (micrograms) of soluble metal per gram of pigment. The acceptable levels for soluble metals in pigments before hazardous labeling is required:

Mercury 76 µg/g

Of course, as with any dry powder pigment, a NIOSH-certified dust mask should be worn when working with dry powder pigments to avoid exposure to dust particles that can irritate the lungs. The above test results do not mean that proper protection should not be worn when working with powder pigments (or any powders for that matter).

References
ASTM D 4302-99 "Standard Specification for Artists' Oil, Resin-Oil, and Alkyd Paints," Annual Book of Standards Vol. 06.02, American Society for Testing and Materials (1999).

(Eibner, 1926) A. Eibner, "Arbeitsumfang der Versuchsanstalt für Maltechnik an der Technischen Hochschule zu München," Technische Mitteilungen für Malerei 42 (1926), 4-12.

(Gettens, 1993) Rutherford J. Gettens, Robert L. Feller, and W. T. Chase, "Vermilion and Cinnabar," Artists' Pigment, A Handbook of Their History and Characteristics Vol. 2 (1993) 159-181.

(Gettens & Sterner, 1941) R. J. Gettens and F. W. Sterner, "The Compatibility of Pigments in Artists' Oil Paints," Technical Studies in the Field of Fine Arts 10 (1941), 18-28.

For more information on this topic, please read the thread:
Vermilion and Cinnabar Toxicology Test Results



Quote:
Originally Posted by APCenter
Naples yellow is pretty much as bad, simply because PY41 is very toxic as well, and modern convenience mixtures that imitate it are very rarely permanent.
Genuine Naples yellow, which is lead antimonate yellow, contains lead, which can be a health hazard if ingested. However, this does not mean that with proper care and good studio practice artists can use these substances without endangering their health. The requisites in avoiding risk is awareness of the risks, how exposure to these risks can occur and how to handle the materials responsibly. Convenience mixtures to simulate the hue of lead antimonate yellow cannot match it for its opacity, permanence and tints.
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Old 06-02-2007, 02:25 PM
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Thanks for those clarifications George.

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Old 06-13-2007, 03:58 AM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Slightly off topic- but I am constantly amazed at how much Naples Yellow I use. It's not a pretty color to my eye- but I just see it in so much of the urban landscapes I paint. So I've learned to appreciate its beauty.
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Old 06-13-2007, 01:26 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Is this genuine Naples yellow? Or the yellow ochres passed as Naples yellow?
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:58 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeoh
Is this genuine Naples yellow? Or the yellow ochres passed as Naples yellow?

OMG George, your lemon yellow earth, with the addition of a little white almost blows the best Naples out of the water! Your oils are fabulous as well.

Jim T
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:43 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Here's mine so far. It is not complete.

Old Holland Indian Yellow Lake Orange Side

Grumbacher Thalo Blue
M. Graham Ultramarine

Daniel Smith Quinacridone Magenta
Daniel Smith Pyrrole Red

M. Graham Yellow Ochre
M. Graham Raw Sienna
M. Graham Burnt Sienna
M. Graham Raw Umber
M. Graham Burnt Umber

Rembrandt Asphaltum

Daniel Smith Mars Black

Old Holland Cremnitz White
Grumbacher Zinc White

I need a greenish yellow, haven't decided on which one.

When I can afford it I will add Doak's vermilion and Rublev's Cinnabar,and a cobalt blue (probably M. Graham).
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:04 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Sorry, I was supposed to explain why I favored those colors.

I like to use CMY when mixing darks. I had to begin with a very limited palette and found I could make anything I wanted with just the Indian Yellow, Thalo Blue and Quinacridone Magenta except for really bright greens, which I didn't need anyway. I like to glaze rather than paint alla prima.

For flesh, or other opaque stuff, I think to think along split-primary lines. I use the earth colors and white, and I will use the vermilion and cobalt for flesh also.

Asphaltum is just a convenience color, but makes nice dark brown transparent glazes.

I love OH Cremnitz white so much. If it were a person I'd marry it. I use it not only in mixing, but I lay down a few layers of it over the gesso to imitate an oil primer. It is much nicer than painting straight onto the gesso and gives luminosity to the painting if you are glazing. Sometimes I build up some texture with it.

I find the fluorescent glare of Titanium white unpleasant, though I might try Doak's lead/titanium white mix just for opacity's sake.

Zinc white is a troublesome pigment but is good for lightening glazes without losing too much chroma.

Mars Black, because I am not one of those who strenously object to black. A convenience color. A little dab will soften a sky mixture.

I have tried a couple of Daniel Smith's interference colors, but I wasn't terribly excited by the results.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:01 AM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

After reading things on this site and handprint.com, I've placed an order for the following watercolors.

Winsor & Newton
French Ultramarine (PB29)
Winsor Orange Red Shade (Pyrrole Orange PO73)
Winsor Violet (Dioxazine Violet PV23)
Ivory Black (PBk9)

Maimeri Blu
Primary Yellow (Hansa Yellow PY97)
Cupric Green Light (Phthalocyanine Green Yellow Shade PG36)
Golden Lake (Quinacridone Gold PO49)

Daler-Rowney
Quinacridone Magenta (PR122)

Holbein
Peacock Blue (Phthalocyanine Cyan PB17)

Based on the CYM+secondaries palette, but I added a couple. I chose brands according to how they were listed on handprint - I wanted colors that were lightfast and mostly transparent. Anyone have any thoughts about what I chose or suggestions? These will be my first artist's grade watercolors. I'm still learning!
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:29 AM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

This is such a helpful discussion for me. I am new and really floundering. I get my hands on all kinds of books and videos, and they all say "These are the magic colors you need!" So I have all these colors, but I am finding that it is not the perfect color, but it is my skill that is going to make the tree look like a tree. I use Ultramarine Blue, Cadmium Yellow, and Cad Red, and Alizeron. I can only make so many colors with these, but I am getting the hang of THESE colors. I read that I should not use black, but I have a hard time right now darkening colors without SOME black.

It is very interesting to try the Cyan-Yellow-Magenta approach that someone mentioned. I think once I have a handle on making a decent oil painting, I will venture out into that area. I remember when I took a graphic arts class. We learned about CYMK for the ink colors. I was amazed to learn that this was how magazines got the shade of green of a new leaf with the sun shining through it.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:36 AM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

You might find some helpful information here.

http://www.realcolorwheel.com

This is a site by Don Jusko, who came up with his own CMY-based color wheel and system for using color. Although it is best for those who glaze rather than paint alla prima, he does have a comprehensive list of what color complements what, so you can mix good darks.

There are other systems out there too. I get a little something useful out of each one.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illuminous art
...he does have a comprehensive list of what color complements what, so you can mix good darks.
Just to clarify something that may not be obvious: this palette uses pairs of specific examples of given pigments that work as mixing complements*. So in many cases you'd have to use the exact same paints to get the same results, something true of many tailor-built palettes like this. You can't use it as a generic guide to how a given pigment will mix because of pigment variations from manufacturer to manufacturer (even within a narrow colour range, like scarlet examples of cadmium red). And, in contrast to how this has often been presented by the author in the past, you absolutely cannot use it as a generic guide to 'this colour will mix neutrals with this colour'. It simply doesn't work that way with pigments.

*It's also important to remember something that was highlighted during long debates here in the past: the success of the neutral mixtures (i.e. how neutral the midpoint actually is) was judged purely by eye. And in a few cases they were clearly a little off.

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Old 10-12-2007, 12:46 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

Endless, endless experimentation of mixing the colors... all part of the fun!
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Old 10-28-2007, 11:11 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

After so many posts and years gone by, I have to admit my palettes change with the wind. I just fell in love with PB 60 (indanthrene, indanthrone, anthraquinone blue) this week.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:27 PM
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Re: Show us your palette colors and tell us why

currantly i am mainly useing CMYK for mixing my colours i also use a colour picker program to get the formulas from any given reference image

i airbrush so its more eficiant for me to mix colours this way

obveously i leave out the white as it isnt in the formulas anyway and only add black to tone the colours

white is only used as a buffer to make opaques when and if i need them but mainly i spray with transparant colours

thats my pallet

paul
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