Two Questions~Process White & Varnishing

[maggie latham]

Hello everyone,

Two issues have come up this week, which I would appreciate input or clarification on.

1. My small local art shop was out of white gouache, and sold me a small jar of Process White by Winsor and Newton. Having looked at the manufacturers web site, I am still not clear if it is in fact white gouache. It has a stronger smell, and seems to react differently than regular W & N white gouache I usually use to mix with gouache or watercolour. Does any one know if it is the same product ..... or does any one else use it?

2. As I have been experimenting a lot lately with gouache and finding out how it reacts watered down, mixed with watercolour, how it reacts to different substrates etc…….. I have also been experimenting with different finishes and varnishes such as Kamar (spray varnish for water based media) .........and brush on acrylic matt and gloss mediums and water based acrylic varnish.

I really like the way my style of work looks when it is varnished with acrylic mediums and varnish, as it really helps to preserve the luminosity of the layers of washes, and really helps to ‘pop’ the colours. Of course you loose the inherent chalkiness of the medium, but it does make my particular work look more painterly and more like an oil painting.

What are your opinions about finishing gouache paintings in this way? Can I still classify my work as painted in gouache, or does the finish change it to a mixed media piece? Are there any other members or illustrators finishing their work in this way?

Looking forward to hearing your comments,

Maggie

[dbclemons]

I've never used the Process White, but I believe it's designed for photographic scanning purposes and airbrushes. I wouldn't consider it gouache, but it should be usable as a substitute. Does it reactivate with water after it dries?

I've mentioned here before that I'm not a fan of vanishing gouache. The binder reacts differently to the resins in the varnish than other mediums do. In many cases, for me, I've seen careful modulations of tone completely disappear in the tests of different varnishes I've tried, including fixatives. The other issue is that varnishes are intended to be removable, should they become discolored over time (as tests have shown them to do,) and you wouldn't be safely able to remove it from gouache without removing paint as well. On the positive side, in addition to the color enhancement you mention, varnishing can even out sunken in pigments, and make the surface easier to care for. If the pluses outweigh the minuses for you, then go ahead and make yourself happy.

You're not actually mixing in another medium. It's still gouache even if varnished. A pastel drawing doesn't become something else if you spray fixative on it. I have a habit of labeling the back of my works with any details I think applicable, so you might consider doing the same here.

[Studio-1-F]

I believe that David is right. Here is more:

"PROCESS COLOURS --- These opaque water colours are particularly designed for Artwork which will be subjected to a photographic process. The Process White will photograph its true value and the Process Black will photograph perfectly black, as unlike most blacks it contains no blue. The two products work freely in an airbrush when diluted with water, and can be intermixed to make a wide range of greys." (http://www.artmail.co.uk/wndipc.shtml)

But Maggie's initial question leads to a very good overall question in my mind: what are the differences among the four (count 'em four!) white gouache colors by WN?
-- 512: Permanent White
-- 748: Zinc White
-- 931: Process White
-- 037: Bleedproof White

Why four? What are the uses/applications? Can a paint be "permanent" but not "bleedproof"? [scratching head]

Jan

[dbclemons]

From W&N's site:
"Permanent White is the whitest most opaque white but is not recommended for colour mixing. Zinc White produces the cleanest, most lightfast tints. Bleedproof White prevents underlayers from bleeding through, particularly those colours marked ‘BI’ on the colour chart. And finally, Process White is for photographic retouching, where it will reproduce its true value."


Permanent white is essentially titanum dioxide with a mix of either zinc or barium, I believe. Different companies call their mixed white by various names. Holbein, for example, has several. I know Bleed-proof is often used by inkers as a sort of "white-out."

[Ian Bruce]

Originally Posted by dbclemons

The other issue is that varnishes are intended to be removable, should they become discolored over time (as tests have shown them to do,) and you wouldn't be safely able to remove it from gouache without removing paint as well.

I believe that with Acrylics, at least, it is fairly standard practice with those who are serious about longevity and conservation, to varnish first with Acrylic varnish (often labeled gloss or matt medium/varnish), then to overcoat this with a varnish that is designed to be removable with mineral spirits, such as Soluvar. I see no reason why this cannot be done with gouache. The outer layers of soiled varnish can be removed some years in the future without harming the initial layer that is protecting the gouache.

[dbclemons]

Originally Posted by Ian Bruce

...I see no reason why this cannot be done with gouache...

I've actually tested this out using both Liqutex's Gloss Medium/Varnish and Golden's Soft Gel Gloss. They recommend these as isolation mediums prior to varnishing acrylics. Golden actually talks about using MSA varnish in this way for other mediums here...

I've tried spraying as they recommend, but it doesn't work well for me. Brushing as you might expect would be even worse, so you need a sprayer, which I don't like using, but even spraying a diluted layer on gouache is touch and go. I also see value shifts like I mentioned earlier, and modulated gradients disappear in some cases. Plus, gouache is absorbent and soaks in the first layer, so you need 2-3 coats of just the isolation medium, which is way too much stuff to put on my painting, in my opinion.

I suppose the big motivation is to avoid using glass, which would be nice. To me it seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through, however; more than it's worth. Also, a gallery owner where I exhibit insists that anything on paper be under glass, period. This is a common opinion. Even if I varnished it, it'd have to be under glass also, which would be dumb.

You might try searching at the watercolor forum here about any varnishing they do. Here's another thread on Golden's blog about it.

[maggie latham]

David and Ian,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on varnishing. I too am under the impression that everything on paper should go under glass. If you are working on a rigid substrate like gessoed masonite, pastel board, prepared gator board etc, then I think you can get away without glass, but even gator board is ‘iffy’ as if you were to poke a hole in it by accident it would damage, and the corners are always getting dinged up.

I am a very curious person, and like to explore the effects different techniques can create. Last year I began using acrylic mat medium and acrylic gloss varnish on my pastels (which are heavily fixed …I like to use fixative as a painting aid) and mostly on my own prepared boards. I really liked the effects that this technique created, as it really ‘popped’ the colours and made my painterly style look more painterly. *The other main reason was that I could sell my smaller paintings matted, unframed in a clear bag (as it was varnished~selling it unframed would not disturb the pastel) ………and there was a market for unframed originals...... in the tourist area I sold my work.

Naturally, I now want to experiment with varnishing gouache etc. Not sure if I am completely enamoured by the look of varnished gouache paintings……looks a bit plasticy to me….acrylic gloss on paper always does…… but I see the value in experimenting with different products in unusual ways.

I have decided I do not like the process white and it has been relegated to the back of the shelf for a long time! It does not react in the same way when mixed with watercolour as my regular W&N white gouache does. I wish I had not listened to the man who sold it to me, telling me it was the same as white gouache….because I believe it definitely is not!

Maggie

[Studio-1-F]

Thank you, David, for that info (from you and from WN) on the purposes/uses of their 4 whites. That answers my questions!

Jan

[dbclemons]

Paper is very sturdy stuff, better than fabrics in many cases, depending on how it's made. Try poking a stretched canvas, for example. People have preconceived notions of it that can be hard to alter.

[Old Tex]

I've stayed out of this one, mainly because I'm a varnisher, and you needed to hear the negatives. And as always, David makes some really valid points. I do admit you have to like the more glossy surface you're going to get with it. It works for me, but it's definitely not for everyone. By now, you've probably tried it on a piece you don't intend to present to the public, not on your favorite piece! You'll either love it or hate it. I suspect it may limit me in terms of competitions and galleries someday, but I'll find my niche somewhere.

[maggie latham]

Hello Ralph and everyone,

Glad you have given your opinion, Ralph. When I varnish my smaller pastel paintings with acrylic varnish I get sighs from pastel artist friends (in disgust usually or disbelief!!!!!)

There are positives and negatives about every technique. Some watercolorists won’t use white gauche, some pastel painters won’t use fixative, some oil painters abhor acrylic…..it goes on and on.

I like to experiment with different mediums and techniques and push the boat out a little, and when I find a combination that works for me, (or enhances my style of painting) I stick with it. Quite often using new techniques and products come out of necessity…….(varnishing my small pastel paintings came out of the need to sell unframed work, matted in see through bags to a tourist market who did not want to ship home a framed piece). I never set out to start varnishing my pastel work, but once on that track my thoughts migrated to varnishing wet media such as watercolour and gouache!!!!

Using white gouache as body colour under a watercolor painting is another one of those iffy areas for watercolorists. But hey, Turner used this technique and it was very popular to use opaque watercolor in conjunction with transparent watercolour back then. But there are many art societies, who will not show your work if it has a trace of opaque in it!!!!

Different mediums can be used in so many different ways, and I am an advocate of pushing the medium until it works right for you.

Maggie

[dbclemons]

I'm a curious fellow, so I tend to dig into the "reason why" of things. It's not always that this or that can be bad or should never be done, but rather "if you do it under those circumstances, this is what to expect."

There are many examples of famous artists of the past who did things that were not considered correct. In some cases, that was the whole point.

[Old Tex]

Originally Posted by dbclemons

It's not always that this or that can be bad or should never be done, but rather "if you do it under those circumstances, this is what to expect."

And that's exactly why your input is important in this particular forum. There's not a lot of information easily available as there is with most other media. I've read of people ruining a favorite piece of work because they tried something without knowing what to expect. Your curiosity and willingness to share is a much appreciated asset for this forum. At least, once informed, people can proceed with some idea of what to expect.

[beattiemt]

Hello all. I'm new here and new to gouache and have found the threads here extremely interesting and helpful.

Quick question re: varnishing [avoiding the question of to varnish or not to varnish, as my work will be included unframed in a group exhibition that will hang for two months and so will need to be protected]. I am painting in gouache on arches 300g/m2 stretched on sealed MDF - do I have to varnish before cutting the painting off the board, or can I finish the painting, cut it off the board/out of the tape and then varnish later without fear of the paper buckling, etc.?

I would like to do the latter as I have limited use of a room suitable for spraying, several paintings to do, one board that I like to use for stretching paper and would like to varnish all the paintings at once.

Advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much for the great resource for information.

[Old Tex]

This question was recently posted on my blog, and I wasn't able to answer it. I'm glad it has shown up here, because I suspect someone here will have a good answer.