Dammar retouch varnish to isolate layers?

[asw07]

Does anyone know if it is advisable to use dammar retouch varnish as an isolating layer to protect my underpainting from more layers of paint? I used to use liquin for this (it worked like a charm) but I have been told that a layer of liquin with no paint in it will turn brown and/or delaminate... so I'm trying to find an alternative.
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Aron

[lotusguy]

Hi Aron,

Excuse my ignorance, but why would you want to isolate the layers? Does this give some optical effect you use?

TIA
Dennis

[asw07]

Dennis,

The reason is that I may rub out what I paint many times before I arrive at something I like, and if the underpainting layer isn't sealed somehow the solvent in the paint mixture will eat away at the underpainting, making it look kind of like swiss cheese.

Aron

[bsquare]

Damar retouch varnish will also dissolve in the solvents...so I guess it will not "seal" your underpainting like liquin did. I just oil it out with the medium I used on my underpainting, however al lot of people say that will make your painting prone to yellowing, its just how I like to work. Why not paint over your underpainting directly? if its dry enough solvents won't get to it...

BB

[Einion]

Originally Posted by asw07

Does anyone know if it is advisable to use dammar retouch varnish as an isolating layer to protect my underpainting from more layers of paint?

Yes, and: no.

I'd try to find a different way to achieve what you want. Perhaps the best way might be to ensure the first layer is fairly insoluble when you're painting over it, but this will mean waiting a long time (as you should - short wait or very long wait are the ideals). In which case you'll probably want to get to the stage where you have multiple canvases on the go at once, so there's always something at the right stage to work on.

However, I think for a lot of painters it would be true that if you're at the stage where you can pick up multiple paintings at various stages of completion and work on them successfully you'll probably be past needing to rub out a lot (perhaps at all).

Einion

[1100ww]

Originally Posted by asw07

...an isolating layer to protect my underpainting from more layers of paint?...

Perhaps you could do the underpainting in diluted acrylic, which would remain unchanged? I don't want to start the whole "oil over acrylic" discussion up again. Just another possible option, especially if you don't want to wait a long time for the underpainting to be dry enough to withstand the abuse of rubbing/scrubbing.

[nick-ynysmon-54]

I use a quite an oily medium containing balsam, either Strasbourg or venetian. what I find is this, the underpainting dries inconsistently, maybe it s my bad technique, or bad mixing on the pallette. anyhow, when a painting is nearing completion and parts of it, especially in a sky, sink, leaving the rest glossy so to speak, the application of a retouching varnish solves many many problems. it gives the whole layer a consistency and thus allows me to complete say a sky or maybe a set of trees or such. I use the formula from the book by massey, which is, 2 part dammar, one part turpentine. this seals the layer beautifully, and dries in about an hour or so. I hope this is of value. I couldn't paint without using a retouch varnish!! also, I recommend buying the book by massey, also the book by mayer, both classics.

[Fifi Trixibelle]

Originally Posted by Einion

Perhaps the best way might be to ensure the first layer is fairly insoluble when you're painting over it, but this will mean waiting a long time (as you should - short wait or very long wait are the ideals).

needing to rub out a lot (perhaps at all).

Einion

Hi Einion, do you mind explaining that a little further? I'm fairly new at oil painting, still finding my way, I wish to understand why one should either wait just a short time or a long one. Also, by rub out, do you mean rubbing with linseed oil? If so, how much? After how long? Your help is much appreciated, I've learned to respect your opinion tremendously.

ASW07, sorry for asking Einion this questions, I don't mean to hijack your thread, I just so happen to have the same question as yours, hope you don't mind.

Delphine

[Termini.]

Originally Posted by asw07

Does anyone know if it is advisable to use dammar retouch varnish as an isolating layer to protect my underpainting from more layers of paint? I used to use liquin for this (it worked like a charm) but I have been told that a layer of liquin with no paint in it will turn brown and/or delaminate... so I'm trying to find an alternative.
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Aron

There are any number of products you could do to accomplish what you want, but as you have said, Liquin "worked like a charm." If Liquin has worked well for you, and you have no problems with it, you may simply want to keep using it. I used it for years, and I have not found it to change color significantly, nor "delaminate." In fact, every time I hear this delamination hypothesis, I always wonder what it is that people are doing to cause this. In my opinion, based on my experience with it, it seems as though someone would almost have to work at making it "delaminate." One may find a few anecdotal situations where artists report such adverse effects, but I have never heard anything to indicate that this is a widespread phenomenon. I wonder if those who have experienced this delamination, could comment as to whether or not they have ever seen a UFO, or a sasquatch?

If it works, why fix it? As you move along the path, you may find more things that offer certain effects. You may want to try a new medium every once in a while, and experiment.

[asw07]

Thank you for your advice everyone.

Bsquare and Einion, I think you are right it is best to let the underpainting dry as long as possible to avoid any damage... I use a lot of lead white in my underpaintings, so that is a fast dryer anyway. In thinking about this, I partially answered my own question in realizing that when I rub out future layers it should be done with pure oil, not solvent.

Einion, I don't think I will ever be past needing to rub out paint, I paint mostly from imaginaton and it is just part of the process I need to go through in order to find what I am looking for.

Nick 54: thanks for the advice, I will check out the massey book, and give the dammar retouch varnish a try.

Termini: you make a good point. I have never personally seen discoloration or delamination on one of my paintings from using liquin, those are things I heard about from reading these forums. It has been repeated enough times to make me worry about it though... lots of contradictory information out there. I don't know if it's true or not, but why take the risk?

Aron

[nick-ynysmon-54]

one last point, if you are finding your paintings are sinking, try simply, oiling out. some of the great masters , like Monet, used to paint into their medium, I believe rapahael did also. just apply a smear of medium to the work and paint into it.

[kazucks]

I have to agree with Termini.
I also have read incidental comments on the web of horrible delamination with alkyd resins and discoloration. There are some in particular that seem to make the campaign against alkyds a singular cause but of course they also sell products which compete with this synthetic resin. I have personally used alkyd resin for isolating varnishes in hundreds of paintings, I have used it as part of medium formulations substituting it for natural occuring resins. I have never had any problems with delamination or discoloring. In addition, I have had hundreds of students which have used it in classes without incident. Now I can understand those that might be romantically inclined to using only old master "age proven" products. Damar, mastic, copal, amber are all beautiful resins which I have used in various periods of work. Are they superior to this synthetic resin? There is no evidence that this is true other than those that express strong preferences. I have done alot of scraping and sanding paint layers in the production of my work. I find that rather than the adhesion being marginal, the adhesion and resistance to abrasion is incredibly strong in layers utilizing alkyd resins. Then of course there is the timebomb scenario, in which in exactly 500 years all the alkyd resin will explode and destroy every painting that used it. I propose that exactly the opposite is likely to occur. That is that the layers that have used this resin will be less likely to crack from expansion and contraction and considerably more resistant to abrasion. If used it will also render varnish layers easier to remove because the solvents will not attack the synthetic resin layers.
We are all responsible for our own material choices and it is up to us to parse through contradictory claims and try to use the materials that we feel best about. If one is strongly suspicious of synthetic resins, or romantically inclined toward old master materials, then use natural occuring resins. It certainly has caused paintings to survive and be handed down to us. But I am not willing to freeze all material choices in the 16th century and refuse to try newer products.

As a side note, the only dramatic and horrible delamination that I ever saw was a student using Turpenoid Natural as part of a medium preparation. That solvent so attacked the paint layer that you could peel the painting off in a skin. I also saw a less dramatic repeat of this with the same solvent with another student. The use of a synthetic or natural occuring resin in the medium formulae could not have overcome the cutting action of this solvent.

[asw07]

Kazucks, I hope you are right. I still use alykyd resin in my paint mixture, specifically M. Graham's walnut alkyd medium, because liquin gave me headaches. I think a lot of people have a fetish about old master materials which does not have that much to do with what will make the best, longest lasting paintings, but allows them to live out the fantasy that they are living in the 17th century. In thinking about it logically, it makes sense that alkyds would be better than traditional mediums- like you said, the paint film would hold up better during varnish removal, and the layers would stay flexible, less likely to crack. My original question related to a point about alkyds that I have read several times, that problems will occur if alkyd resin is used as a retouch varnish, without any paint mixed in with it.

[Termini.]

Originally Posted by asw07

Kazucks, I hope you are right. I still use alykyd resin in my paint mixture, specifically M. Graham's walnut alkyd medium, because liquin gave me headaches. I think a lot of people have a fetish about old master materials which does not have that much to do with what will make the best, longest lasting paintings, but allows them to live out the fantasy that they are living in the 17th century. In thinking about it logically, it makes sense that alkyds would be better than traditional mediums- like you said, the paint film would hold up better during varnish removal, and the layers would stay flexible, less likely to crack. My original question related to a point about alkyds that I have read several times, that problems will occur if alkyd resin is used as a retouch varnish, without any paint mixed in with it.

In my opinion, it's fine to use that way. However, if you want to see it "delaminate," the sure way would be to prime your underpainting with slicone lubricant. In that case, you may find a subsequent paint layer, on the floor, under your easel, looking like a fruit roll-up .

[hblenkle]

I did some test strips of mediums on scrap canvas. The test was done in '03 and '04. Looking at them today Liquin, Galkyd Lite, and Galkyd SD yellowed about as much as W&N Medium and Glazing Medium. Poppy Oil, Copal Medium, and Linseed oil yellowed more. You could use acrylic underpainting and a layer of clear gesso by W&N, which is suppose to have absorbency and grit to hold oil paint, then paint with yoour oils.
hblenkle