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  #76   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-03-2009, 03:15 PM
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Einion Einion is offline
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Thanks for posting those EmmyBee, great to be able to compare then side by side

Quote:
Originally Posted by marielizabeth
Until I saw the paintings side by side I didn't believe the old painting had faded, but now it is obvious that it has.
Do you see noticeable fading in the tints that you know contain Alizarin Crimson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by marielizabeth
I just want to add that it appears the old painting has yellowed some as well...
Slight yellowing is quite normal for oil paintings.

Is it varnished do you remember?


Hey Jim, perfect time to ask - you have PBr24 in oils too yes? How does it compare in oils to PY41 in terms of opacity, handling? I know the natural pigment varies a lot so a single example is just that (unless you have others), but was curious if you had any specific observations from direct comparisons.

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Old 03-03-2009, 08:08 PM
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gunzorro gunzorro is offline
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

Einion -- I posted some examples included in the recent thread on Oil: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548950

The photos on this above thread are for the most part from my Photobucket inventory of the past year or two, with a new one on Yellow Ochre Natural and Synthetic comparison.

Of the Naples Yellow PY41 and "Naples Yellow" imitation PBr24 there is quite a bit of difference. I really as sorry that PRr24 has become labeled as a "hue" because it is an outstanding stand-alone single pigment, with only a similarity to the real thing, but not really a imitation in intent.

I have both Harding types of the genuine stuff, the Light and Dark. I also have Vasari's Naples genuine, as well as their two versions of PBr24: Naples Orange and Tuscan Yellow, as well as their Naples Yellow (hue). The Vasari are not shown except one PBr24 in a photo further down.

I have recently received small sample tubes, courtesy of Jacques Blockx, of Blockx version of four of their special and extremely expensive Historical Paints, including the Light and Dark versions. Also included by Jacques were the other two Historical Paints: Vermilion and Lapis Lazuli. (Yes, the Light version is slightly greenish! Very unusual!)

Here is a color sheet showing the Blockx colors, in various intermixing, along wtih comparison to the Harding genuine Naples, and other similar colors. (apologies --the red in the Vermilions is slightly oversaturated in the photo)



I don't like to do redundant posts between the various forums here at WC, but this example of some PBr24 will be convenient to contrast to the genuine Naples above.



In opacity, all the genuine Naples I have tried are to be considered semi-opaque: they are opaque, but their tinting strength is not very powerful. Vasari is the most opaque, most powerful and also a bright yellow. The Harding Light version has the most vibrant bright yellow -- similar to an anemic version of Cadmium Yellow Light. The very lack of opacity and strength is a plus, for the uses geniune Naples will most commonly be put to -- portraiture, and secondarily, landscape painting.

In consistency/handling, Vasari is the thickest, but not pasty. All the genuine Naples have the consistency range of its primary components lead and antimony, being most similar in handling to lead white paint -- in other words, quite smooth and creamy.

The PBr24 paints have a tremendous covering power, being very opaque and very strong tinters. Quite similar to what you might imagine a "cadmium earth" would be like. They have a some variation in hue, the most extreme probably being the Vasari Naples Orange and Tuscan Yellow, hence the brand's desire to provide both. PBr24 is fairly close to the Dark versions of genuine Naples, but lacks its subtley and transluscency. A very useful pigment, that I dare say I've used more often than genuine Naples -- which I have a natural aversion to using up!

The following sheet shows my comparisons at the time I had received the Vasari Naples, along with their Capucine Red Light and their new (last year's introduction) of Transparent Oxides --the five colors center-left of the sheet.

To the right of the Vasari Naples is Harding's Light verson for direct comparison. The Harding is the brightest of the Naples I have tried with the strongest chroma.

Down the left, center and right sides are various mixes. The left side shows how UMB mixes into the five Vasari colors shown. The central (yellow) column, shows Vasari Naples mixed into the four other Vasari earth colors. On the right side are two similar columns showing the five Vasari colors mixed into Venetian Red in the left-hand column, and Capucine Red Deep on the right-hand side.


Last edited by gunzorro : 03-03-2009 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:02 AM
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Einion Einion is offline
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Wow, thanks Jim - I was hoping to get just a few sentences!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro
I don't like to do redundant posts between the various forums here at WC...
Perfectly understandable, thanks a mil for all the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro
Of the Naples Yellow PY41 and "Naples Yellow" imitation PBr24 there is quite a bit of difference.
PY41 can vary across quite a range (not just towards lighter, yellower types), I have seen samples that are much more of an earth orange, seemingly very similar to a typical PBr24, although without direct comparison it's hard to be sure. But Chrome Titanate can apparently vary hugely too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro
I really as sorry that PRr24 has become labeled as a "hue" because it is an outstanding stand-alone single pigment, with only a similarity to the real thing, but not really a imitation in intent.
Yep. Thankfully it is provided in a few paint lines under different names so it won't be 'unfairly cast' everywhere; artists are generally getting more informed so the hue designation won't be automatically thought of as a negative as much as it used to be, I hope.

I have it in acrylics in one range as Gold Ochre (which is a great name for it IMO, given the colour). I though it was offered under its real name too although I can't recall which brand or medium

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:07 PM
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

Thanks Einion!

Due to your interest and continued encouragement, I've done something special -- a direct comparison of all the undiluted PRr24 in my collection, as well as -- a comparison of all the genuine Naples Yellow in my collection. Pretty interesting results!

Although I doubt it will be a hot topic of discussion, I'm putting it on its own thread so it will be easier to find.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...60#post7653960

Last edited by gunzorro : 03-04-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:41 PM
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Brian Firth Brian Firth is offline
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

Hey Jim,
How about throwing a swatch of the Blockx Vermilion in the California sun and letting us know how it does!
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:28 PM
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

Ha-ha!! Brian -- You know me pretty well!!! It's been out there for about 3-1/2 weeks, next to an earlier section of Harding Vermilion (which has darkened quite a bit). I put the Blockx on the existing canvas as wet paint without covering a portion, and let it dry outdoors -- I can simply add some fresh paint when ready for photos. I'm pretty certain the Blockx is beginning to darken as well.

If so, that would make it Harding, Blockx and Holbein all darkening in bright light, and only Doak not doing so -- which would seem to cast more suspicion on the Doak Vermilion being genuine. Even if we find Doak is not genuine, I still love it, and it must be cadmium-based, with possibly Pyrol Orange mixed in -- which wouldn't be a bad combo.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:29 PM
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro
Ha-ha!! Brian -- You know me pretty well!!! It's been out there for about 3-1/2 weeks, next to an earlier section of Harding Vermilion (which has darkened quite a bit). I put the Blockx on the existing canvas as wet paint without covering a portion, and let it dry outdoors -- I can simply add some fresh paint when ready for photos. I'm pretty certain the Blockx is beginning to darken as well.

If so, that would make it Harding, Blockx and Holbein all darkening in bright light, and only Doak not doing so -- which would seem to cast more suspicion on the Doak Vermilion being genuine. Even if we find Doak is not genuine, I still love it, and it must be cadmium-based, with possibly Pyrol Orange mixed in -- which wouldn't be a bad combo.

Great Jim, looks like all real vermilion darkens in sunlight, except Doak's. I am getting ready to test RGH and Blue Ridge's genuine vermilion, which all look like the Doak color and will keep everyone posted on the results. RGH is apparently the source for Doak and Blue Ridge's pigment and I called them and the guy said he was "pretty sure" it was genuine mercuric sulfide. I agree that whatever the Doak pigment is, it is beautifully unique, and very lightfast. So, it's hard not love it!
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:15 PM
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Re: Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

UPDATE- Yesterday I got the RGH and Blue Ridge vermilion and neither one is the same shade as the Doak vermilion I have, with the Blue Ridge being considerably oranger in masstone and in tints. Possibly Blue Ridge grinds theirs finer to make it more orange? The RGH vermilion has the strong metallic smell that all cadmium reds do, so that makes me think it's not even real vermilion. The Doak and Blue Ridge do not have a noticeable smell. So, this kind of shoots a hole in the "RGH being the source of Doak and Blue Ridge's vermilion" theory. I am testing them both to see if they darken. In my opinion the Blue Ridge paint was the most pigmented and beautiful of the three. As soon as they dry I will scan and post images of what I am seeing.
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