Looking for a new paint to replace extinct one

[marielizabeth]

I have less than a half tube of Grumbacher's Finest Naples Yellow left. I have been looking for a couple of years for another color to take its place. Is Antimony the same thing? I've just been collecting yellow tinted paints I probably will never use. Can you help me ? Thanks

'becca

[Einion]

Hi Becca, most Naples Yellow paints made in recent years are hues (and really should be named that way to avoid confusion). Unless there's pigment information on the label of the Grumbacher Finest tube you have it's hard to know what to suggest as a replacement, particularly since both the real thing and the various commercial mixtures sold under the name can vary quite a bit in colour - from quite bright yellows through to deeper earthy yellows (even nearly orange) as well as some salmon or 'pinkish' types.

Now personally I don't find the colour of a typical middle-of-the-road Naples Yellow necessary on the palette (since I have yellows, white and earth colours already it's easy to mix around it) but if you like it and rely on it, and would prefer not to have to use a mixture of other things to get similar results, there are many versions now available; the only problem you face being finding one of the colour you're looking for.

Genuine Naples Yellow, lead antimonate, has some nice properties in oil paint (including very good opacity) and if you'd like to try it there are a couple of sources now for this, including WC! sponsor Natural Pigments and Michael Harding, both of which are high-quality lines.

If you don't want to use the real thing due to any toxicity concerns a few modern replacements are made using PBr24, a lovely deeper, slightly earthy, yellow that mixes very nicely. Not as opaque as the real thing but not as transparent as many of the older hues. Examples of this include Naples Yellow Deep from W&N and Naples Yellow Italian from Williamsburg.

If you can post a picture of a swatch of the paint you have (a tint would be useful as well) some of the Oil Painting regulars may be able to help you with specific recommendations geared to its colour, although bear in mind they are judging from individual monitors and each could show the colours differently, which is also a problem when viewing the swatches on makers' website.

Einion

[marielizabeth]

Thanks Einion, I would mix the color myself, but nothing I have tried has worked so far, the back of the tube says "zinc oxide and cadmium sulfide in finest quality linseed oil." Where are you getting the numbers from? There is a cat. # F146 on the front of the tube and after unrolling the tube I found one on the bottom, backside 2303-A7657, neither of which sound like the numbers you are giving.
Thanks also for your reply to my other post, Rose Dore/Madder question. I've heard for years about Rose Dore in skin color, and there has been a lot of talk lately about Aliz Crimson not being permanent, not good, etc. but I've used it for years, although red a good bright red
has been missing in my paintings, so much so that I will change colors sometimes because I can't get a good red. So when Speed mentioned the Dore instead of the Aliz Crimson , I thought that could have been my problem, I saw the post on the ruby pyrol here and believe I may try that, unfortunately I ordered the Dore before I read that post,. I am also trying to find a substitute for Opera in Holbien's H2Oils, Love the color, hate the paint. Any suggestions?

[dbclemons]

Grumbacher has a Naples Yellow "Hue" on their catalogue, but I don't see a genuine naples. Their hue is a combination of different pigments, looks like cadmium yellow and red light, zinc white, plus yellow ochre I'm guessing. PY 41 is the color code for lead antimonate, I believe.

[Brian Firth]

Originally Posted by marielizabeth

…the back of the tube says "zinc oxide and cadmium sulfide in finest quality linseed oil."…

This would mean the paint is a mix of Cadmium Yellow and zinc white. You can try mixing those two colors to see if you can match it. However, it could be any shade of cadmium yellow (lemon, light, medium, deep, etc), so you will have to experiment to match the shade you are looking for.

You might want to try Gamblin's Naples Yellow Hue, it is a mix of cadmium yellow, yellow ochre, and zinc oxide. It could be close to what your are looking for.

[Andy23]

I personally like the Grumbacher Naples Yellow, although like Einion I ususally just mix the equivalent. Grumbacher's is, I believe, a mix of these pigments: PBr7, PR108, PY35:1, PW4. It's a good middle of the road Naples Yellow - not to far to any of the extremes.

[gunzorro]

Marielizabeth -- Grumbacher is using the chemical names of the pigments. Most often manufacters use the pigment numbers, which stand for the chemical names of pigments, which is what Einion was referring to.
As Brian said, you have a ******* (damn! I've been bleeped! "illegitimate male child") on your hands (maybe I'm paraphrasing?). Your "Naples Yellow" is a hue, or an imitation, and should be easy to mix up depending on which shade of Grumbacher Cadmium Yellow they are using.
Why don't you make us a sample against either neutral white or grey, take a good photo and post it here, then we'll see about recommending a close replacement.

BTW -- current thinking is to avoid zinc white pigment as much as possible because of evidence of delaminating, cracking and chipping, so you might want to look for a genuine lead or titanium white (or mix both!) as your new white.

Regarding Rose Dore -- this is a simple, very, very weak tinted mixture of pigments, not a stand-alone color. You would be far better using a stronger color and weakening it, like a Quinacridone Magenta (PV19). I like convenience color mixes, but even I think Rose Dore is going too far for too little. Much as I love genuine Alizarin, it is not the best long-term choice, so I would also recommend a substitute like Williamsburg Permanent Crimson (PR177). (See -- some substitutes are GOOD! Confusing, huh?)

Einion -- My experience with PBr24 and PY41 seems to be different than yours. If find PBr24 to be far more opaque with much better covering power and tinting strength than genuine Naples Yellow, either the Light or Deep versions (and more still than Lead Tin Yellow, or genuine lead Jaune Brilliant). Being lead-based the genuine Naples handles better and mixes more subtly, and might be a better choice for skin tones, etc. But I find I really like the power of the "imitation" Naples Yellow Deep of PBr24. My favorites are Vasari's Tuscan Yellow and Naples Orange, OH's Naples Yellow Deep Extra and Harding's "Naples Yellow" (confusing because he also make the two genuine Naples Yellows!).

[marielizabeth]

Gunzorro,
Of course you realize this is all making me want to hang myself with my panty hose, right? But, enough about me..
I've just loaded up with lead whites from several manufacturers (thought that would give me an idea who I liked and didn't), and I can always use the white as ground if nothing else. So far I love the Natural Pigments
Rublev Lead white, not the least of which because they named it lead white and it doesn't have zinc in it. (would you believe, silver white, ceramic white, crimnitz white, flake white, but beware, like the snowflake, no two are the same). I'm having a hard time believing someone is making this just as confusing as possible deliberately to trick people. The illegitimate male children! (could we shorten to IMCs?).
As to the dore, I ordered Gamblin's quinacridone
magenta, but as luck would have it, it's number is PR122. Wouldn't you just know it? I am making note of the color you recommend for Aliz Crim so I can replace it when I run out.
I will make a picture of a dab of the naples yellow I am speaking of, when I can. Besides typing and shopping I am also painting and running a household, but should be able to do it this weekend.
How hard is it to load pictures here, do I need to use photo bucket to do so?
Thanks so much for your help I do appreciate it. 'becca

[gunzorro]

becca -- photobucket is best, then just copy the IMG code and paste into your WC text and the picture appears there. I would keep the width down to 800 max, and the rez below 200k (around 100k is better when possible). You have Photoshop Elements (or higher)? If so, just select "Save for web" in the file menu and make your size/rez adjustments there.

Sorry for all the color blather and pigment numbers. PR122 is fine, and I'm sure you'll like it. As Einion said on another of your threads, using this and a blue, yellow and white (maybe a black or dark brown, like burnt umber) will get you started doing blends and test paintings to get the hang of it. You can slowly add paints as you progress.

[GH-Mongo]

Originally Posted by gunzorro

Regarding Rose Dore -- this is a simple, very, very weak tinted mixture of pigments, not a stand-alone color. You would be far better using a stronger color and weakening it, like a Quinacridone Magenta (PV19). I like convenience color mixes, but even I think Rose Dore is going too far for too little. Much as I love genuine Alizarin, it is not the best long-term choice, so I would also recommend a substitute like Williamsburg Permanent Crimson (PR177). (See -- some substitutes are GOOD! Confusing, huh?)

From what I have seen and read, Anthraquinone PR177 may have lightfastness issues.

[gunzorro]

Not according to Virgil Elliot, who has conducted long term tests, that seem to verify industry standards of lightfastness. This is supposed to be one of the best reliable substitute pigments from Alizarin Crimson.

[Virgil Elliott]

Originally Posted by gunzorro

Not according to Virgil Elliot, who has conducted long term tests, that seem to verify industry standards of lightfastness. This is supposed to be one of the best reliable substitute pigments from Alizarin Crimson.

Gunzorro,

I appreciate being quoted as a source, but in this instance I think I might be being misquoted. Sorry to be such a nitpicker.

In my test results, the most lightfast alizarin crimson substitutes were Archival Oils' Permanent Alizarine and M. Graham's Quinacridone Rose, neither of which contain PR 177. The Archival Oils paint mentioned is a mixture of PR 122 and PR 175; The Graham paint is PV 19.

The PR 177 oil paint that I tested was not Williamsburg's, but I'd expect the same performance from that pigment regardless of whose brand it was sold under. Whereas PR 177 is rated ASTM Lightfastness I, there is a range represented within that category, and judging by its performance in my tests, I'd rank it near the bottom end of that range, or perhaps question whether it really belongs in that category at all. My test involved a much longer period of exposure to light than the tests prescribed by ASTM. So I'm with GH Mongo on that one. I wouldn't regard PR 177 as optimally lightfast.

Virgil Elliott

[gunzorro]

Sorry for the misquote, Virgil. Thanks for the correction!

[Brian Firth]

I have also done side by side testing of Alizarin Crimson PR83 and Winsor and Newton's Permanent Alizarin Crimson PR177 Anthraquinone red. After a year of sunlight exposure, Winsor and Newton's PR177 proved to be very lightfast, while PR83 once again is confirmed as not being near as lightfast. See my attached test samples. The original samples are on the left and the sample exposed to sunlight for a year is on the right. Note the particularly drastic fading in PR83 undertone.

[gunzorro]

Thanks Brian! I've seen these before, and think I confused your results with Virgil's! We've been having these conversations on the same subject at around the same time on several different forums! Virgil had posted some interesting comments on Rational Painting forum.

I took advice from both you and Virgil about substitute colors for Alizarin. So far, I have bought the Williamsburg Peramanent Crimson PR177 and be very happy with (to my chagrin, as I already owned OH Burgundy Wine Red, which is the same pigment!). I'll eventually get the Archival Oils type Virgil recommended.