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  • #986801
    Deborah Secor
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        Okay gang, help me out here. Let’s talk a little about paper and the difference between tooth and texture. I’m working on my new edition of the workbook, and I found myself in a conundrum. What is the difference to you? Let me share what I’m thinking to get the ball rolling. I really need some help thinking this through!!!!

        [I]PAPERS WITH TOOTH
        Tooth is not the same as texture. Tooth is generally gritty and usually refers to the coating added as a surface treatment. Under a magnifying glass you’ll see little fissures and holes where the bits of pastel settle, but the best test is the hand. You need to feel the surface to see if it is fine-grained and machine smooth, rough and scumbled, or deep, soft and velvety. Sandpapers are usually made on a backing sheet of some kind, covered with a coating that contains pumice, sand, marble dust or other silicates that provide the irregularity needed to hold pastel in place, the ‘tooth.’

        For instance, sanded papers such as Wallis, Art Spectrum, UART or Sabretooth are generally fine-textured and rather smooth to the touch but have deep tooth. Richeson Premium Pastel paper, on the other hand, is slightly grittier, with a somewhat rougher hand.

        PAPERS WITH TEXTURE
        Texture is generally patterned into the paper itself. It usually refers to the weave or other regular marks left on the surface of the paper that will show up more clearly when pastel is stroked across it. The pulp of the paper may be apparent, resulting in a slightly striated, bumpy or screened surface. Some of these papers have a laid surface, which is a patterned texture of parallel lines impressed in each sheet.

        Texture does not have as much depth as tooth and does not hold as much pastel in place, sometimes requiring a fixative or other finish to stabilize the pastel.

        Textural papers include all of the watercolor papers such as Lanaquarelle, and printmaking papers such as Arches and Rives BFK. The most commonly used textured paper is Canson Mi Tientes, which is quite textured on the front side, bearing the dimples caused by the screen on which it’s made. [/I]

        I guess I’m still reeling from reading somewhere that an artist thought Brenda Mattson paper was quite toothy–when in my estimation it’s very soft!

        Is tooth and texture relative? Can I begin to explain all this effectively to people, or must I rely on photographs of paintings to show texture and tooth–or will that even work? Oy–help me out here. :eek: :eek:

        Tell me what tooth is.
        Give me examples of toothy paper.

        Tell me what texture is.
        Give me examples of textured paper.

        Thanks for your opinions!!! :heart:

        Deborah

        Deborah

        "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
        Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
        Gouache Blog

        #1094383
        Donna T
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            Thanks for explaining the difference between tooth and texture, Deborah. I admit I never fully understood the difference between the two. I would have said that Wallis is very toothy and Canson has little to no tooth. You are right, Canson has a texture and that’s what makes it different (although I will always think of it as toothless too because of its inablilty to hold many layers). I also sometimes think that texture can be applied to the effects we can get when putting pastels on a surface. A multi-layered sky where all the different layers can be seen in a 3-D way up close has texture vs. a sky that has been over blended and becomes flat, with no texture.

            Donna

            Donna
            C&C Always Welcome

            #1094365

            texture=appearence
            tooth=ability to hold pastel

            regards
            Dan
            http://dfgray.com/

            #1094368
            Deborah Secor
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                Hmmm, thanks for the thoughts Donna. I guess for now I really want to analyze the paper itself, not the application of pastel. I thought of the textures we make, such as those that Tom Christopher does with his own boards. I need to think about that, too.

                Dan, you can’t stop there. I won’t let you! It’s not enough info!!! Tell me, why do you think texture is only appearance? If you don’t want to use the word tooth for anything but the ability to hold the pastel (which might make sense), what about textural papers? Is texture thus also tooth? :confused: :confused:

                Deborah

                Deborah

                "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                Gouache Blog

                #1094384
                Dougwas
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                    Hi Deborah.

                    To me texture is the way the paper feels to the touch and tooth is what actually holds the pastel. The tooth of the paper can make the texture feel rough or smooth.

                    Maybe It can be explained by comparing the texture and weave to fabric. Depending on the weave, the texture could be smooth or rough. :confused: I think.

                    Good luck.

                    Doug

                    #1094385
                    Anonymous

                        for me, texture is the pattern on the paper that you see if you were to drag a pastel on its side over the paper, while tooth is the amount of bite that the paper has to grasp and hold the pastel.

                        Actually, Dan said it the best. It must be a guy thing. it just the way it is, there is no why. :)

                        #1094387
                        Peiwend
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                            For me, a paper towel has texture, sandpaper has tooth, and photocopy paper has neither tooth nor texture. I think that most people could quickly understand this.

                            You write; “Textural papers include all of the watercolor papers…”
                            If you’ll allow me a teensy, tiny correction: Hot Pressed watercolour paper has practically no texture. It is similar to the back of Colourfix. When primed with Colourfix Primer it is similar to Colourfix Paper but with a little less tooth.

                            All in all, I thought your explanation was excellent.

                            ________________________Wendell

                            #1094380
                            Don Ketchek
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                                Deb,

                                I think your descriptions are very well written. I would agree with your differentiation between texture and tooth.

                                mrking wrote:

                                for me, texture is the pattern on the paper that you see if you were to drag a pastel on its side over the paper, while tooth is the amount of bite that the paper has to grasp and hold the pastel.

                                Succinctly put and accurate. And explains why texture is not just appearance, but an actual indentation in the paper. Just not enough indentation to significantly increase the paper’s ability to hold pastel.

                                Don

                                #1094369
                                Deborah Secor
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                                    Hi Deborah.

                                    To me texture is the way the paper feels to the touch and tooth is what actually holds the pastel. The tooth of the paper can make the texture feel rough or smooth.

                                    Maybe It can be explained by comparing the texture and weave to fabric. Depending on the weave, the texture could be smooth or rough. :confused: I think.

                                    Good luck.

                                    Doug

                                    Okay, Doug, I guess that’s a good description. Feel versus holding power.
                                    Thanks!

                                    for me, texture is the pattern on the paper that you see if you were to drag a pastel on its side over the paper, while tooth is the amount of bite that the paper has to grasp and hold the pastel.

                                    Actually, Dan said it the best. It must be a guy thing. it just the way it is, there is no why. :)

                                    Yep, that’s my definition, too. What you see describes texture. It’s describing tooth, bite, that seems harder, at least until someone has tried pasteling and understands that.

                                    There is no WHY? Hmmm..there is. But maybe Dan doesn’t need to describe it in any clearer terms than others have subsequently done. :wink2:

                                    For me, a paper towel has texture, sandpaper has tooth, and photocopy paper has neither tooth nor texture. I think that most people could quickly understand this.

                                    You write; “Textural papers include all of the watercolor papers…”
                                    If you’ll allow me a teensy, tiny correction: Hot Pressed watercolour paper has practically no texture. It is similar to the back of Colourfix. When primed with Colourfix Primer it is similar to Colourfix Paper but with a little less tooth.

                                    All in all, I thought your explanation was excellent.

                                    ________________________Wendell

                                    Ooo, that’s a good analogy, Wendell. I may borrow that one! Thanks.

                                    I agree about the watercolor paper. I haven’t developed that paragraph yet so it will be further explained.

                                    Thanks to all of you. I’m still mulling over how best to explain all this to the beginner! Still open to thoughts…..

                                    Deborah

                                    Deborah

                                    "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                                    Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                                    Gouache Blog

                                    #1094370
                                    Deborah Secor
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                                        Thanks, Don. Yes, I’m going to continue to try explaining texture as being sufficient to be seen but not enough to function to hold much pastel in place.

                                        And then I’m going to describe the soft, nappy papers that have a fuzziness factor, such as the velours and suede matboard, etc., as well as going on to talk about the different effects you can achieve using differing papers and pastels! I have a lot to write yet.

                                        Thanks!
                                        Deborah

                                        Deborah

                                        "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                                        Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                                        Gouache Blog

                                        #1094377
                                        Tatijana
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                                            Deborah –
                                            One can also have a support that has both tooth and texture. If one gets into preparing ones own surfaces using the art spectrum mix or preparing a mix of gesso with pumice the mixture would be giving you the tooth and the type of brush and/or stroke or roller will or will not give you texture.

                                            tatijana jacenkiw, psa

                                            [FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]www.tatijana-jacenkiw.com
                                            [FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]www.chicagopastelpainters.com

                                            #1094371
                                            Deborah Secor
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                                                Yes, I agree, and I intend to cover that issue as well.

                                                Deborah

                                                Deborah

                                                "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                                                Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                                                Gouache Blog

                                                #1094378
                                                Tressa
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                                                    Good thoughts here. To me, as was said with the primers applied with brush versus roller, Texture is what I see and feel through the pastel pigment, and Tooth is what holds it there.
                                                    And the BM paper has no TOOTH!!! LOL I have two big blocks of it,and am just now trying it with some of the Pans, and some primers.
                                                    Tres
                                                    Tres

                                                    My Webpage: www.zhibit.org/treshommel
                                                    Blog:http://leonardosloft.blogspot.com/
                                                    Test
                                                    "We derive more benefit from having our faults pointed out by our enemies than from hearing the opinions of friends." (Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519)

                                                    #1094382
                                                    Snowbound
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                                                        I agree with Dan and mrking– so I guess it is not a guy thing. I don’t think you can relegate “tooth” only to sanded papers. Unsanded papers can also have tooth; it just isn’t a hard, gritty tooth. I do agree that tooth can be defined to refer to the ability to hold pastel, but I am not sure that it can be neatly divided into two categories like that. I think rather than trying to assign attributes to a category of surfaces, these terms can be defined (as Dan and mr have done quite adequately, IMO) as attributes to be taken into consideration when choosing a surface to work on.

                                                        An added thought: I also do not believe that the ability to hold a lot of pastel is necessarily a positive attribute. A less toothy surface can force an artist to put more thought into what he/she is doing, and also allow incorporation of the texture of the paper into the composition.

                                                        Dayle Ann

                                                        http://www.DayleAnnStratton.com online portfolio
                                                        http://snowboundstudio.blogspot.com/ random musings about life and art

                                                        Anything worth doing is worth doing badly... (anonymous)
                                                        #1094366

                                                        why do you think texture is only appearance? If you don’t want to use the word tooth for anything but the ability to hold the pastel (which might make sense), what about textural papers? Is texture thus also tooth?

                                                        the ability of the surface to hold pastel has no or little relation with it’s laid appearence(texture), canson has the texture of canvas but not the tooth of sandpaper (little texture), in my opinion

                                                        regards
                                                        Dan
                                                        http://dfgray.com/

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