The White Experiments...

[Petdevils]

G'day,

I decided it was time to start to learn how to draw with white on dark toned paper... To my surprise I'm more confidant with an all white drawing; presently I seem to mess them up when I try to add the black too?

> ??? < I am simply unsure of the best way to light the paper while drawing with white; so as not to draw the white on too thickly and exagerated. I've tried drawing in a very brightly lit, low light and very dark room and it's hard for me to gauge which aides the best tonal results - what do you think about this aspect?

it's a start... tips and crits on this type of drawing would be especially useful as I'm certainly out of my comfort zone!

ciao.

White charcoal pencil with occasional black charcoal pencil - and this is the same chick each time although it can be hard to tell - done over 3 days


A6 on roughly ink toned paper













...previous image with black added (badly)





A5 on Vidalon





...previous image with black added (badly)

[margmackisack]

This is really interesting, you have sculpted these faces out of the background really well.

However, I find it hard to believe that the right side of her face is darker in tone (I think you guys call it value??) than the whole of the left side? Like, if the darkest tone on the left side is paler than the background paper tone (as it appears to be in the screen image) then I would expect to see at least some of that darkest tone, at least, as the lightest tone on the right side?

What if you worked the negative space on her right with the black, and moved in gradually on the face just in the darkest bits?

I think the thing is, looking at the bottom pair of drawings, you have established the (limited) tonal range in the white-on-grey image: then adding black you are trying to convert it to a completely different tonal range, and once you do that the dark side of the face comes into play.

I am not explaining myself very clearly ; I think what you are trying to do is quite tricky, and you might find it easier if you established the full tonal range right from the start? Get clearer about where your darkest darks are going to end up, and where the paper tone fits into the tonal range. So perhaps you won't use black at all in the end and just do a complete head with white, with the paper as the darkest dark - endless scope for experimentation.

Cheers,

Marg

[Adair_P]

Hello Pet! I like the way you are thinking with these... I agree, some well-placed darks would be good for you to try. Maybe they are already there.... just not showing up clearly in the photos?

[jjackm]

I've never really tried anything quite like this except scratchboard. Then of course, you get pure white on black. You still get some value though by how large the areas of white are and how deep your marks are.

[macrobertson]

Pd, you are entering unchartered waters here... I'll just keep watching from a safe distance

Marg is making a logical point.

Mac

[troutbum]

The drawings are very good. Perhaps using a middle value paper may be part of the "problem". Why not just use white on black paper. It is an interesting experience. When using black paper, every value other than black must have some white in it. Although I have not used this technique frequently over the years, I first used it in a college art class to freak out the teacher who did not like the idea that I insisted in drawing realistically. Mission accomplished.
troutbum

[Petdevils]

All - hi, while im very happy i improved far beyong the first attempt (i think atleast) I'm not at all happy with the vidalon drawings - i turned her into some wierd elfin thing - happiest with the white only in the middle drawings... so i'm calling it a partial success.

This is definately a less is more thing - but to the extreme, it's gonna force me to increase my ability to read and lay more sensitive values - so all in time.


marg - sculpt is what i was thinking too - its like a different medium. I think i get what your saying about the darkest tone left = right side and have a simple explanation - i'm scared of using black on these as when i tried it just went wrong...

actually the whole right side and the rest of the paper should be pitch black but i didn't want to mess it up even more... maybe i should go back and do that anyway tho as im not happy with the vidalon as it is now?

I wasn't going to post this for fear of losing all credibility when you realised how unlike the ref my drawings look but..... here it is.... should explain a bit.



i agree with everything you've said - its just gonna take me time to get my head around doing what i know i need to do or figuring out how - its so much harder than black on white!



pauline - hi, there are on only 2 images with any black added - and as i said they just made the drawings suck that were only white. Adding the black scares the crap out of me cause... well i don't know why. Have you done many drawings like this, any tips on mastering blacks onto the whites?


jjackm - hi, funny you mention that, these did make me think of scratchboards when i was doing them - but as you said - i can get more than one value of white with these papers - its just controlling them!

mac - wise move, unfortuantely i am an irresponsible drawerer and i'll go swimming in the dark anyway

troutbum - You've said what i felt too - almost pure black paper is actually what i think i would like... however, that said i still need to learn how to do middle value paper properly - its just a lot scarier! so i'll do both.

[Adair_P]

Originally Posted by Petdevils

pauline - hi, there are on only 2 images with any black added - and as i said they just made the drawings suck that were only white. Adding the black scares the crap out of me cause... well i don't know why. Have you done many drawings like this, any tips on mastering blacks onto the whites?

Pet.... as troutbum said...... if you use black paper, then all you need to add is varying values of white. I remembered Joe Rucker used to do some drawings in white on dark paper, and I found a few for you.......
War of the kneaded eraser
What technique do you use
My Art Archives
Life Drawings Man & Woman
You will find some good examples there..... amd if you want more, search Joe Rucker's threads..... there are zillions of drawings.
I haven't done much of this myself..... but you made me want to! May try something next week..

Cheers...

[Joe Rucker]

adair, im flattered to be used as an example.

petdevils, i used white media on dark surfaces weekly for about 4+ years straight so let me know if i can be of any help and let me know if you have any questions. however much experience i have it pales in comparison to prudhon, so i must recommend that you go to this link below:

http://art.net/~rebecca/OnPrudon1.html

there you will find a detailed explanation about both his methods and vast amounts of info on light media drawing in general.

i hope it helps shed some light on the odd things you will no doubt come across.

p.s. seek the brightest spot first and then sneak up on the rest. also, for really bright spots, near the end of the work, use white Conte' pencil or crayon. the eraser can make or break the work, and good luck.

[Petdevils]

Pauline - hi, thanks for the advice and links to joe's work - it was nice to see something closer to what I was looking for.

Joe - G'day, I've really enjoyed the work Pauline showed me that you have done and will try and check out more soon (bloody dialup )

Thanks for the tip on Prud'hon, fortunately I had already devoured that site earlier. Subsquently, one of my most prized art books is my 1st ed HC copy of The Language of the Body by John Elderfield that I sniffed out from the UK Although it will take me many years to try to do half the things he does.

It's also nice to see someone who appreciates fine papers, any favourites for figure work? I might seek some advice later once i've put some more hard work in to find out the more obvious stuff, thanks for your help.

ciao

[WV.Artistry]

Lurking . .

Me too, easier to work with a toned background. I do pretty well with a grey.

I did meet someone who does black toned boards and etches the black off revealing white beneath. If it interests you, I'll ask her for specifics.

[Joe Rucker]

for the price, mi tientes tobacco by canson used to be a cool paper to use and for about $2 you could get a 19" X 25". sheet. they have been changing their papers though and most of their stuff is lower quality than it was in the past. i'm not sure if tobacco was changed too since i have not used it in years. regular canson black is not very good now but better than many others for the same price. i normally do my warm up sketches on the cheep stuff then switch to a finer paper for the longest poses.

for sanguine conte' my favorite paper is charles 1st. this possibly my favorite paper ever but it runs about $10 to $11 for a sheet that measures only about 18" x 22". oh, did i mention that it is handmade and the only sheets i know of were all made in 1975 and are currently out of stock. to the best of my knowledge i might be the only person who has some blank sheets left, although i seriously doubt it. if you can get some sheets they are worth every penny! right now i am doing my work on rice paper so i guess i'll save those extras for a rainy day. for an example of the quality of this fine paper see the link below of the drawing i made last year.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/atta...0&d=1128924709

if you plan to use sanguine conte' but want to save a buck or two then use niddigen. measures about 24" x 36" for about $3 to $4. reeves crem colored soft printing paper is good too and for about a $1 and some small change you can get a sheet about the size of a canson sheet. this one is normally used for printing but it is awesome with conte'.

your best bet is to find a store with people who know their stuff and tell them what you are using and what texture you are seeking. i used to use this one dark brown paper and it was great but i forgot the name of it since it was a gift. but i'll see if i can find out the name of it for you.

hope that helps.

[Petdevils]

hi richard,

if you can get her explanation translated into something we could use in normal drawing that would be great. I wanna study drawing black and white on medium toned paper 33-75% grey) as the bulk of my work and also do white drawings on verydark - near black papers as well

Anything you can offer here would be great thanks

[Petdevils]

Hi Joe,

I thought I saw you had some ingres paper (was that the charles 1) what where they. one problem i've found is using black and white conte - don't seem to mix well - often bad blues appear from the black so im wondering if i should try to trani myself to work each area seperately in one coloue then the first shaded over so no bad blends... this i find vexxing.


i'll have a hunt online for some of those papers you mentioned. Did you have any more details for the charles 1st paper - british mill for example? i tend to order from the source unless i can convince a retailer to import it for me. Most art stores here in Brisbane (australia) are mailny concrened with having the basic arches range and not much else so you have to hunt around to get the goods or get em yourself!

unless one day I come to own my own paper shop - hmm minus the logistics of massive foreign orders - that would be beautiful!

ciaio.

[Joe Rucker]

no, the ingres was a black paper and charles is a gray/greenish color. ingres is good and well priced, so certainly give it a go.

conte' seems to mix a bit hard at times, true. unfortunately i have not done much b&w conte' together; usually either black only or white only. you might try regular pastels; i have seen some good results by several people. try oil pastels too. however, experimenting is perhaps the only way to find what works for you.

one last thing. the brown paper i used a long time ago is called Roma and i believe it was made by Fabriano. i am pretty sure it is no longer made but if you can get it, it yields a dreamy sort of look. i have no example here on WC but it is really quality stuff indeed. good luck; let me know how it all turns out.