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Old 03-08-2006, 01:47 AM
Adult Beginner Adult Beginner is offline
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PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

As a newbie I have read much about avoiding PR83. I just received a tube
(mistake in shipping) of Holbein Rose Madder PR83 and was surprised to see
it rated as "A" with 3 Asteriks. While I haven't found Holbein's rating system
and what it means, I did go to the Holbein website and considered other paints with the same rating. From my basic knowledge, the A and 3 Asteriks means
something much better than questionable. Initially I was thinking that PR83
always meant fugitive, now I'm wondering if the fugitive quality has now been
controlled or if it is being rated a tad too high?

Thanks!
riv'
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Old 03-08-2006, 09:20 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

I'm really not trying to point a finger anywhere so let me try and restate my question more generally. Being new to painting I have read in many sources to
avoid certain pigments that are fugitive. I realize that there are other ingredients used in making paint....Pbkr comes in a tube as several colors I
already know about etc so there has to be something else in there or the ratio
of something changed etc. With respect to a single pigment, often referred to
as fugitive, can that pigment be produced in varying degrees of permanency?
(This is just for info because right now I can use anything and everything to
learn with).

Thanks!
riv'
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Old 03-08-2006, 09:24 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

While it is true that different brands can somehow make fairly stable colors fugitive, I do not believe anyone has discovered a magic formula to make the fugitive pigments stable (or "lightfast"). Rose madder IS fugitive, and to be avoided, sadly.
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:11 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

I would like to know what you find out about this. I've been doing all kinds of searches on PR83 and what everyone uses for substitutes. I've tried the Gamblin alizarin permanent, it's made up of PV19, PR149 & PB29 but I don't care for it as well. I also have W&N Perm. Rose PV19 and it's a lot brighter. I'm thinking of trying perylene maroon PR179.
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Old 03-09-2006, 09:43 AM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Perylene maroon is what the handprint author Bruce MacEvoy used to recommend to replace one use of alizarin crimson. If I recall correctly, he recommended either PV19 for the colorful, long-valued aspect; or PR 179 for the dull (as in flesh-tones) aspect, or to mix with PG 7 for black. Iow, replace it with two alternatives. But then he wasn't entirely happy with the result of his last lightfastness tests of the PR 179 -- apparently it's okay, but not the very best.

Edit: Figured I might as well give you the actual text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html
For those who are still using alizarin crimson (PR83), I strongly recommend you try perylene maroon as a replacement. It has a dark, warm, dull color very similar to alizarin crimson but without the strongly bluish overtones of the quinacridone pigments, its mixing complements include phthalo green BS (PG7), which produces a pure jet black darker than most carbon pigment paints, and it is completely permanent in watercolors. (This replacement requires you to think of mixtures you used to make with alizarin crimson in two ways: the flesh tones and neutral mixtures you used to get with alizarin crimson are provided by perylene maroon; the intense reds and violets are provided by a quinacridone rose or magenta.) And perylene maroon stains aggressively, again just like alizarin crimson.
Although the site was written for w/c painters, the information on pigment applies to all media. I overstated the lightfastness issue with PR 179, too; here's the actual text again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibid
Perylene maroon PR179 is a lightfast, transparent, highly staining, very dark valued, dull to moderately dull deep red pigment; five manufacturers offer it worldwide. The ASTM (1999) and manufacturers rate its lightfastness in watercolors as "excellent" (I); my 2004 tests also make it "excellent" with a very slight loss of color in tints, in some brands, after 800+ hours of outdoor sunlight exposure.
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Last edited by FriendCarol : 03-09-2006 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:16 AM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Thanks Carol,
Has anyone used the perylene maroon PR179, and if so, what brand. I see W&N has a perylene black listed on one site, but W&N doesn't have it listed on their site where they give the chemical description. Pre-tested oils has a perylene maroon PR179 listed.
Also has anyone used W&N Brown Madder Alizarin (Anthraquinone PR 177) which is the very same chemical as W&N Permanent Alizarin Crimson PR 177, just a lot different in price.
Marcella
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:22 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Rose madder (NR9) is ASTM Lightfast II in oils, at least the Winsor and Newton pigment is. They make the most lightfast rose madder pigment in a painstaking long process, hence the high cost. Rose madder is not lightfast in watercolors. Alizarin Crimson (PR83) is not lightfast in any medium, period.


Good single pigment replacements for Alizarin Crimson (PR83) are:

Anthraquinone Red (PR177)
Benzimidazalone Carmine (PR176)
Quinacridone pyrrolidone (PR N/A)
Pyrrole Rubine (PR264)
Perylene Maroon (PR179)
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:23 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Rose madder (NR9) is ASTM Lightfast II in oils, at least the Winsor and Newton pigment is. They make the most lightfast rose madder pigment in a painstaking long process, hence the high cost. Rose madder is not lightfast in watercolors. Alizarin Crimson (PR83) is not lightfast in any medium, period.


Good single pigment replacements for Alizarin Crimson (PR83) are:

Anthraquinone Red (PR177)
Benzimidazalone Carmine (PR176)
Quinacridone pyrrolidone (PR N/A)
Pyrrole Rubine (PR264)
Perylene Maroon (PR179)
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Old 03-09-2006, 02:21 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Thank You Carol, Marcella, and Brian. Your advice is very much appreciated.
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Old 03-10-2006, 04:02 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcella B
Also has anyone used W&N Brown Madder Alizarin (Anthraquinone PR 177) which is the very same chemical as W&N Permanent Alizarin Crimson PR 177, just a lot different in price.
Marcella


The Winsor and Newton Brown Madder Alizarin is a red shade earth color, not a crimson. It is a mix of PBr7 (a natural iron oxide, possibly Raw or Burnt Umber) and a small amount of Anthraquinone Red (PR177). That is why it is much cheaper.

Winsor an Newton offer Perylene Red (PR149) in oils under the name Winsor Red Deep. They do not offere Perylene Marroon (PR179) in oils.
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:51 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Firth
The Winsor and Newton Brown Madder Alizarin is a red shade earth color, not a crimson. It is a mix of PBr7 (a natural iron oxide, possibly Raw or Burnt Umber) and a small amount of Anthraquinone Red (PR177). That is why it is much cheaper.

Winsor an Newton offer Perylene Red (PR149) in oils under the name Winsor Red Deep. They do not offere Perylene Marroon (PR179) in oils.

Thanks Brian for bringing that to attention, I just noticed today while doing more searching, that I had missed seeing the PBr7 in the Brown Madder Alizarin (that makes a big difference). I've did so much searching and have so much stuff printed out. I have a lot of brand names matched up with the pigment numbers. Different brands have different names for the same pigments, and then they aren't alike even thought they have the same pigments. Do you or anyone else have a favorite of the one's you listed that comes close to PR83 and if so, what brand?
Marcella
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Old 03-10-2006, 08:25 PM
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Thanks for all the good info posted above folks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcella B
I've did so much searching and have so much stuff printed out. I have a lot of brand names matched up with the pigment numbers. Different brands have different names for the same pigments, and then they aren't alike even thought they have the same pigments.
Yes, this is unfortunately inevitable with some pigments that vary quite a bit depending on how they're made, not to mention some of the Colour Index Numbers are for what amount to a family of related pigments of slightly differing compositions, e.g. PR108, PBr7, PR101, PY42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcella B
I've been doing all kinds of searches on PR83 and what everyone uses for substitutes.... Do you or anyone else have a favorite of the one's you listed that comes close to PR83 and if so, what brand?
I know it can be difficult to find a suitable alternative if you've become accustomed to working with a given paint's colour and mixing abilities, but it's more likely than not that nothing is going to match Ali Crimson's exact nature as closely as you'd like (given that it varies quite a bit to begin with). So my general advice is to pick any good-quality paint that can function in the roughly the same way and work with it; before too long you'll learn how to do the same things that you did before, just as any other painter who never used PR83 already does

Einion
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Old 03-13-2006, 12:23 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

In my experience the pigments closest to matching Alizarin Crimson IN OILS are: Anthraquinone Red PR177 and Pryrole Rubine PR264. In watercolor I would default to Bruce MacEvoy's choices on handprint.com (benzimida carmine PR176 or perylene maroon PR179). However, like Einion has suggested, I would recommend you find the pigment that works best with your palette and not concentrate on whether it exactly matches Alizarin Crimson. Any of the lightfast crimson pigments will effectively fill that color space and work great in you palette. I personally love them all in their own special way.
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Old 03-13-2006, 05:15 PM
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Re: PR83 Fugitive to Permanent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Firth
...I would recommend you find the pigment that works best with your palette and not concentrate on whether it exactly matches Alizarin Crimson. Any of the lightfast crimson pigments will effectively fill that color space and work great in you palette.
That's my thinking whenever someone asks "what's the closest match to ___?". Since most of us don't often use colors straight from the tube anyways, I don't see a whole lot of need to match a pigment exactly....at least in terms of color and mixing. It's largely just what you're used to and usually can be worked around. Imagine someone who has used Quinacridone Rose all their life were to suddenly have it replaced by Alizarin Crimson: "It's so much duller and doesn't mix the same way!"
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Old 03-13-2006, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick1
Since most of us don't often use colors straight from the tube anyways, I don't see a whole lot of need to match a pigment exactly....at least in terms of color and mixing.
Yep, and by the same token some mixed hues (whether bought or made on the palette) don't have to perform the same as the colour they're standing in for since one can always adjust. Look at Cerulean Blue for example - some people use it as a go-to paint for skies nearer the horizon but you can obviously do perfectly well with a mixture of a phthalo blue and white (maybe with a little dulling) or French Ultramarine, a touch of green and white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick1
Imagine someone who has used Quinacridone Rose all their life were to suddenly have it replaced by Alizarin Crimson: "It's so much duller and doesn't mix the same way!"
That is so true.

Einion
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