WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > The Town Center > WetCanvas Site Discussions
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-26-2002, 01:02 PM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
Help build the WC! Virtual Palette! :)

Ok, gang - a new year, and more goodies on the way!

One of the things that I've always wanted to put on this site was a tool that allowed people to "virtually" mix paint. That way, new folks could practice without getting messy, and wasting tons of paint (cost!), etc. There will never be anything like working with the "real deal", of course, but this is a little tool that I've always felt would help new folks learn about the color wheel, etc.

After 3 years of procrastination (lol), I've decided to work on it a bit. This is a rather complicated affair, and each member's mileage will vary using this tool, as the results depend a lot upon the video card, monitor, and video resolution that each member is using. However, using a modern PC or Mac should yield decent results. Members using older PCs with 16-bit video cards and the like, or those folks using browsers that heavily "dither" colors (old Netscape versions come to mind), will likely not be too pleased with the results - lol.

At any rate ... this is your chance to help build and shape this new tool! Get your thoughts in while we build this in psuedo real-time.

Here is the link to the work-in-progress:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/colormixer

Caveats:
  • Most computer systems do a really bad job at rendering *real* color. I am aware of the pitfalls, and the shortcomings - no need to write me and tell me such things. This tool is meant to serve as a playpen, not a replacement for the eye and a real palette full of paint.
  • There are some bugs in this tool - my virtual "mixing" functions assume equal parts of paint - as such, your mileage will vary when mixing colors. This tool doesn't take into account the tinting strength of a certain paint. Something like alizarin crimson will go a long way in small dabs in real life - again, here, we assume equal parts. So reproducing the results of the mixtures here in real life will require a bit of translation. At some point, tinting strength functionality would be a nice thing for this tool. We'll see.
  • Opacity, lightfastness, etc., are not taken into consideration yet.
  • My formulas for calculating complements and mixes are not perfect. It has been a long time since I did geometry and trigonometry - lol. It is slowly coming back to me, though (not sure if that is a good thing or not). As such, certain mixtures will yield inaccurate results. I know this already. They'll be worked out shortly.

Notes/To-do List for this project:
  • Ultimately, there will be a lot more paints listed - these test colors were sampled from the Winsor/Newton color chart for oil colors. Again, the idea here is to get relatively "close" to the color.
  • Tinting strength and quantity of paints will be added at some point.
  • Ultimately, each color swatch will be clickable, and you'll be able to save a certain color, and what you mixed to arrive at that color. Then, you'll be able to recall that color later for viewing, or mixing with other things.
  • I'd love to implement more color analysis stuff. A member could upload an image, and the tool could analyze the image's color map, and approximate the various paint mixtures that could be used to get "close" to certain aspects of the image. Something to explore ...

For the gurus:

You likely already know this, but colors represented in television and computer monitors is done via an RGB color model, which is radically different than the way artists work in color. Actually, it is different than the way the *eye* perceives color in nature. Light vs. energy, etc.

I've written a nifty set of tools to convert colors to and from the different models (HSV to RGB - HSV being Hue, Saturation, and Value, RGB being Red/Green/Blue). For the overly curious, it uses some serious trigonometry to calculate the intersection of saturation, value, and hue within the HSC conical model. I will post some images of the model here if anyone is interested.

Cheers.
Scott
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2002, 09:54 AM
NorahT's Avatar
NorahT NorahT is offline
A Local Legend
Ontario, Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,980
 
Hails from Canada
Fascinating - I could spend a whole afternoon in there
Would it be possible to name the complimentary colours for us?
__________________
Norah

'Tis the set of the sails and not the gales
E W Wilcox
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2002, 10:28 AM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
Quote:
Originally posted by NorahT
Fascinating - I could spend a whole afternoon in there
Would it be possible to name the complimentary colours for us?

Yes, this is planned. If the compliment has a name, that is. Most of the time, this wouldn't happen (1 1-to-1 match, I mean).

I do however, plan on adding some analysis-type features, which can show you how you can "arrive" at a color's complement, and its triads, splits, etc.

Cheers.
Scott
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2002, 10:47 AM
Neillydun's Avatar
Neillydun Neillydun is offline
Veteran Member
Enschede, The Netherlands
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 650
 
Hails from United Kingdom
Wow!

This will be a very useful tool for us newbies to painting. It also appeals to the nerd in me....thanks a million

cheers,

Neilly
__________________
"A problem worthy of attack, proves its worth by fighting back" - Paul Erdős
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2002, 11:34 AM
LarrySeiler's Avatar
LarrySeiler LarrySeiler is offline
A WC! Legend
NE Wisconsin Nicolet National Forest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 34,961
 
Hails from United States
I had a great week at the state convention Scott, and I have a feeling quite a few administrators, school board members, and superintendents are going to be encouraging their art instructors to check out Wetcanvas and the potential for future artists!

I can't help but think Scott, what a useful tool this would be in the art classroom.

You talk about the mess, etc; but also the expenses in a budget at a time when art classes are trying to survive and remain in a district throughout parts of the country.

This doe not eliminate the need to allow students to mix color, but as a tool it can save time and foster understanding.

For example, it took many of my painting students 10 minutes sometime to mix a color, compared to my five seconds when I came over to assist. It would be a great tool for lessons and reference thereafter for students to go over to the computer and mess with this virtually.

Of course...with Photoshop provided on systems, one can do that too...however, at the highschool level...that is a serious lesson in itself. Keeping it as simple and user friendly as possible would be a plus here!

I'm tellin' ya Scott...gotsta thinks outside the box. While you entertain these thoughts and new ideas, keep in mind the contribution to education you might be providing. That's where the future lies, also where grant monies exist, etc!

Larry
__________________
Larry Seiler- Signature Member IPAP
"My Painting From Life" blog
Main website!
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-28-2002, 08:30 AM
TPS's Avatar
TPS TPS is offline
Veteran Member
Branford, FL USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 854
 
Hails from United States
You seem to have a handle on the inherent problems with the differences with mixing light and mixing pigments. It will be interesting to see if these difficulties can be overcome. And as you said, there is no real substitute for working with actual paints. Other shortfalls would be the factors of reflectance, transparency, undertone/overtone, etc.

Years ago I had a flip book of colors that had the formulas on the reverse of the page. Even that was not as helpful as intended. It also seems the Munsell system had formulas for all colors; you may want to research that.

As Larry mentioned, the color tools on most paint/graphics programs allow for color manipulation. However, it sounds like you want to design something that is more artist friendly. It is a noble endeavor, and I wish you success.
__________________
See my plein air landscapes at Tierra Pintada Studio
Plein Air Florida, artists working on location.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-28-2002, 10:41 AM
arlene's Avatar
arlene arlene is offline
A WC! Legend
Lawn Guylind
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 21,379
 
Hails from United States
Scott this is excellent!!!

Now are you going to do the same thing for colored pencils? and watercolors? since those show up differently?
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-28-2002, 11:38 AM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
TPS - yes, I am somewhat familiar with the Munsell system - interesting stuff. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Arlene - yes, it is a possibility - assuming, of course, that I can get it to work properly in its current state. Simulating watercolors is similar, in that it is a subtractive process, but it will also involve diffusion. Not sure about colored pencils ...

Cheers.
Scott
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-28-2002, 06:54 PM
henrik henrik is offline
Immortalized
Stockholm, Sweden
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,006
 
Hails from Sweden
Thumbs up

Wow scott, you beat me to it - I started on a project like this in Java for my own amusement but I am not finished! This is a great tool !!!

What I planned to do was a function to calculate a starting point for a mix given a color in HSV. I.e. locate the closest "tube color", adjust hue with "tube color" with strongest pull in the right direction, possibly add a third "tube color" if hue is off by too much, then adjust value using black/white.

Some variation could be acheived by selecting say the three closest colors - one of the suggested receipies ought to be a good starting point for manual experimentation with real paint.

I also thought a function like; given a specific tube color, how do I mix it into a HSV color - sort of like above but with a constraint on starting color.

The ultimate is an application that takes a photo, posterizes it and calculates the color mixes for each area (say reducing the color to 16 colors) - Instant Paint By Number !! What a great aid that would be in understanding the colors in a photo.

Are you writing this in Java? If so, an applet could probably access local color correction profiles for devices using the ICC_ColorSpace stuff to overcome problems with color representation on various devices - still quite complicated and perhaps not worth it given that the HSV calculations will be "in theory" anyway since the real opacity, tiniting strengths, and that many mixes in real life can not be represented as straight lines in HSV will introduce so much error that the device differences may not matter.

Have you tried the Java2D stuff - lots of image manipulation things in there - I have been working with Java2D for the last year for our company's 2d graphics stuff, so if you need help don't hesitate to ask. (But this project is probably to fun to share )



Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-29-2002, 11:22 AM
RuthT's Avatar
RuthT RuthT is offline
Immortalized
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,193
 
Hails from Canada
Thank you Scott.

This will be a great time-saver for the complimentary colours of a mix.

I don't have any trouble with getting a colour I want though, I just know what colours will produce it. I don't bother with what the colours are called by the manufacturer. I just look at the colours I have and pick two. The only colour that eluded me was turquoise, and fortunately I overheard a teacher showing another student how to mix it.

I guess it's a bit like having concert pitch in singing.
__________________
Ruth
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-29-2002, 11:37 AM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
Henrik - good thoughts. If you are interested in a collaboration on this, drop me an e-mail. I've thus far experimented with the mathematical models for CMYK, HSV, CIELAB and CIE XYZ. There are issues with each of them. Could be a fun project.

Currently, it isn't in Java - but it could be. It is just PHP doing the math and generating swatches.

Cheers.
Scott
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-30-2002, 12:21 AM
lori lori is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,900
 
yes, yes YES!!!!

oh happy happy me...

not just a good idea...a great idea...
Reply With Quote
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-30-2002, 12:37 AM
reynolds's Avatar
reynolds reynolds is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
foothills in california
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,003
 
Hails from Canada
thanks, i shall check it out...
__________________
The soul is not in the body; the body is in the soul.
---Hildegard von Bingen---
Reply With Quote
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-30-2002, 04:43 PM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
Okay - BIG update here!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/colormixer

After several days of playing around with the HSV (hue, saturation, value) color model, it finally occured to me that I was trying to do the impossible - apply a "subtractive" color mixing paradigm to a model based on "additive" mixing. No worry!

I rewrote the code and it is now (loosely) based on the CMYK standard, which is used in the printing business.

I think you will find the results to be a bit more realistic. Many changes in this release (still draft, mind you).
  • The colors and mixing actually *work* now as intended.
  • In the value charts that are generated, if a color finally reaches "black", no additional swatches are shown - no need really, there isn't anything darker than black.
  • I've added the ability for you to mix "proportions" of paint! Yes, now, you can see what happens when you mix 2 parts of 1 color, to 1 part of another. As I mentioned before, "tinting strength", opacity, and other elements are not yet taken into consideration. In time. Therefore, 2 parts of alizarin crimson, as you likely already know, is enough to drown out any color.

Again, this is draft - see all the caveats I posted in my first message in this thread.

Cheers.
Scott
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-30-2002, 05:33 PM
scottb's Avatar
scottb scottb is offline
A Local Legend
Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,375
 
I spoke too soon. The mixing part seems to work better, but the tints/shades on the value charts sometimes gives slightly erroneous results.
__________________
B. Scott Burkett
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing Copal!"
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:13 PM.


Copyright 1998-2013, F+W Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved.