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Old 09-30-2004, 12:21 AM
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NitroGal78 NitroGal78 is offline
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I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Could we please get back the to tell part in show and tell? I get all this inspiration from the beautiful beads, but I don't know the colors well enough to figure it out from the photos. Sorry to be a party pooper.
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Old 09-30-2004, 12:50 AM
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

I agree that the "tell" part would be nice to have, but I would venture to say that in many cases, the lampworker wants to show his/her work without giving away the recipe, especially if she/he is benefiting from excellent sales for her particular bead/set. And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?

I'm just glad to see what everyone is doing! I don't look at the showcase as often as I'd like, but when I do I'm always astounded.
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:01 AM
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Beth Myers Beth Myers is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitroGal78
Could we please get back the to tell part in show and tell? I get all this inspiration from the beautiful beads, but I don't know the colors well enough to figure it out from the photos. Sorry to be a party pooper.

You aren't a party pooper! Learning from the Show and Tell is an important part of the process I believe.
For some flameworkers showing work is a great tool for building confidence and getting some much needed pats on the back.
For others, sharing tips and techniques is important.
Some artist prefer not to give away their trade secrets, and I don't blame them.
I would like to feel that anyone who wanted to post in the show and tell could do so without having to feel obligated to reveal any information that they didn't want to divulge.
It is a fact that some members do choose not to post some remarkable work because of this. And also because so many are copied.
I hate that.
It has been my experience that most artist are very generous with information when pm'd or emailed.
And as a side note, I really hate it when someone post another artist work and ask....."How do they do this or that"?
It would be very rare to see that in any other forum here on WC. And considered rude. I agree with that. I understand some may feel flattered to be noticed and there is nothing wrong with that, but what about the curtesy of asking the artist privately first. But I guess that is a whole different rant
I hate being deprived of some amazing work or denying an artist this outlet all because they didn't feel ready to give away those hard earned "insider tips"
Beth
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Last edited by Beth Myers : 09-30-2004 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:17 AM
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Beth Myers Beth Myers is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole
And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?


Well put!
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"In the South, the breeze blows softer...neighbors are friendlier, nosier, and more talkative. (By contrast with the Yankee, the Southerner never uses one word when ten or twenty will do)...This is a different place. Our way of thinking is different, as are our ways of seeing, laughing, singing, eating, meeting and parting. Nothing about us is quite the same as in the country to the north and west. What we carry in our memories is different too, and that may explain everything else." --Charles Kuralt in "Southerners: Portrait of a People"
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:24 AM
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Myers
Well put!
B~
LOL... I was just going to say the same to you!
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:27 AM
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole
LOL... I was just going to say the same to you!

Thank you Nichole!
I HATE always sounding like everyone's first grade teacher
Beth
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"In the South, the breeze blows softer...neighbors are friendlier, nosier, and more talkative. (By contrast with the Yankee, the Southerner never uses one word when ten or twenty will do)...This is a different place. Our way of thinking is different, as are our ways of seeing, laughing, singing, eating, meeting and parting. Nothing about us is quite the same as in the country to the north and west. What we carry in our memories is different too, and that may explain everything else." --Charles Kuralt in "Southerners: Portrait of a People"
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Old 09-30-2004, 11:28 AM
Kimberly Affleck Kimberly Affleck is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole
And imagine the benefit you get in experimenting over and over again to figure it out on your own, rather than just following a set of instructions?

DITTO!!!!! That is how most of the well known artists got there in the first place!!! Think of all of the interesting effects you might miss if you just follow someone else's recipe!
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Old 09-30-2004, 11:31 AM
Kimberly Affleck Kimberly Affleck is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Myers
You aren't a party pooper! Learning from the Show and Tell is an important part of the process I believe.
For some flameworkers showing work is a great tool for building confidence and getting some much needed pats on the back.
For others, sharing tips and techniques is important.
Some artist prefer not to give away their trade secrets, and I don't blame them.
I would like to feel that anyone who wanted to post in the show and tell could do so without having to feel obligated to reveal any information that they didn't want to divulge.
It is a fact that some members do choose not to post some remarkable work because of this. And also because so many are copied.
I hate that.
It has been my experience that most artist are very generous with information when pm'd or emailed.
And as a side note, I really hate it when someone post another artist work and ask....."How do they do this or that"?
It would be very rare to see that in any other forum here on WC. And considered rude. I agree with that. I understand some may feel flattered to be noticed and there is nothing wrong with that, but what about the curtesy of asking the artist privately first. But I guess that is a whole different rant
I hate being deprived of some amazing work or denying an artist this outlet all because they didn't feel ready to give away those hard earned "insider tips"
Beth

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!!! It is sometimes disheartening to see how many want to take the "short cuts", real or imagined, rather than try on their own and come up with something new. There really aren't any shortcuts. Time on the torch, effort, inspiration and practice. And a little sweat.
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Old 09-30-2004, 11:41 AM
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SuzyQ SuzyQ is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Nitro gal - I thought your question was a valid one. But I guess it isn't the norm for lampworkers to share color mixing. Now we know . When I was first learning about color mixing it was in watercolor. I just made a chart and penciled in what I used. When I started playing with clay I made little color squares each time I discovered a "new" color and wrote down the recipe on the tile. I am very, very new to glass so maybe one of the more experienced lampworkers could tell us the best way to do the same with glass. Please?
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Old 09-30-2004, 12:23 PM
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Speaking of a little sweat, a little research in the archives of this Forum will reap SCADS of details about color mixing. You might try that.
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:05 PM
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Schermo Schermo is offline
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No More Shortcuts!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimberly Affleck
DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!!! It is sometimes disheartening to see how many want to take the "short cuts", real or imagined, rather than try on their own and come up with something new. There really aren't any shortcuts. Time on the torch, effort, inspiration and practice. And a little sweat.

Ah, yes. Kimberly has stated it EXACTLY - I feel this all the time, from not only the people I've taught, but from the posts I've read by newer beadmakers on all the forums. Why do people want shortcuts? Don't they realize that the real satisfaction from beadmaking comes from learning and discovering things for yourself??? Sometimes I even feel a sense of entitlement behind requests for information and technique. (Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, just what I've noticed, in general.) It makes me mad. (Now you've pushed the button, and got me going. Nice job, Kimberly!! LOL)

I know this sounds cliche'd, but those of us who have been making beads for a number of years (more than 5) were in what I think was the third or fourth wave/generation of beadmakers, and five or more years ago, there were NO presses, NO booklets on beadmakers and techniques, very few books and videos (I think when I started, there had been 3 or 4 books published at that point in time on beadmaking ), no DVD's, no recipe booklets and VERY few classes offered.

Today, with all the information that's out there on the internet, you can find a zillion websites to gaze at handmade beads, a bead show to go look at and buy the real thing (or supplies) this weekend, a book to order off Amazon.com today, and a class in almost any technique to sign up for next week. You also have the amazing resources of Wet Canvas! and The ISGB forum. (As Susan mentions, after you sign up, first thing to do is learn to use the archives and search function!)

It is so much easier now than it was when I was learning (she says, stroking her long, gray beard.... I'm channelling Lewis Wilson at the moment, I think...) and I want to encourage all of you, next time you want to know how something is done, GO OUT TO THE TORCH and FIGURE IT OUT!! I guarantee that you will learn FAR MORE that way, than if you simply look it up on the internet.

Hot glass is something that you need to learn not only by reading about it, but even more so by doing it. It's the interaction between head, eyes and hands that will make you proficient, not just by reading about it, and getting tips, tricks and shortcuts.

Let me explain it another way: Some one telling that they made a certain set in the color combination with ink blue and sage green, and then melted silver foil on top will allow you to COPY that color combo, and make a similar set, or at least get that look to your beads.

However, an hour or so at the torch, experimenting with colors and foils and frits and enamels, trying to figure it out on your own, will teach you (whether you know it or not, and regardless of whether you actually figure out how to duplicate the other person's beads!) SO MUCH MORE!!

And yes, I realize that you all do that, anyway. I just want to encourage you to rely less on the internet, and more on your torch in order to grow as beadmakers.

Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?
Schermo
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:28 PM
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Melinda Melanson Melinda Melanson is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Quote:
Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?

...giving a helping hand to Schermo's current personality. hee hee

I remember when I started burning glass, I was frustrated over the lack of online information available. My lack of computer "smarts" didn't help in the matter. Then Michey turned me on to the ISGB, there was more information there than I could handle. (thanks alot Michey, I have spent thousands of $$ on glass, equipment and have a mild case of torch envy!)
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:32 PM
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Well, this has pretty much hurt my feelings. I thought the daily posts were called "show and tell" with the purpose of receiving praise for excellent work and telling how the beads were made. I guess I never feel like it is a competition with secrets that need to be protected, and if an artist is afraid someone can "really" copy their work maybe there shouldn't post in "show and tell". Aside from all of this argument that can get ugly at times here. My intentions were to purchase some of the nice colors I see in the beautiful beads in show and tell that I have not used of yet, not copy beads or secret formulas. I will continue to slowly use my limited resources to buy only a few rods at much higher prices w/out bulk discounts and experiment on my own.

My intention with this post is not to ruffle any feathers, but to state just how wrong assumptions and conclusions can be.
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Old 09-30-2004, 01:45 PM
Kimberly Affleck Kimberly Affleck is offline
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Re: No More Shortcuts!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schermo
Ah, yes. Kimberly has stated it EXACTLY - I feel this all the time, from not only the people I've taught, but from the posts I've read by newer beadmakers on all the forums. Why do people want shortcuts? Don't they realize that the real satisfaction from beadmaking comes from learning and discovering things for yourself??? Sometimes I even feel a sense of entitlement behind requests for information and technique. (Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, just what I've noticed, in general.) It makes me mad. (Now you've pushed the button, and got me going. Nice job, Kimberly!! LOL)

I know this sounds cliche'd, but those of us who have been making beads for a number of years (more than 5) were in what I think was the third or fourth wave/generation of beadmakers, and five or more years ago, there were NO presses, NO booklets on beadmakers and techniques, very few books and videos (I think when I started, there had been 3 or 4 books published at that point in time on beadmaking ), no DVD's, no recipe booklets and VERY few classes offered.

Today, with all the information that's out there on the internet, you can find a zillion websites to gaze at handmade beads, a bead show to go look at and buy the real thing (or supplies) this weekend, a book to order off Amazon.com today, and a class in almost any technique to sign up for next week. You also have the amazing resources of Wet Canvas! and The ISGB forum. (As Susan mentions, after you sign up, first thing to do is learn to use the archives and search function!)

It is so much easier now than it was when I was learning (she says, stroking her long, gray beard.... I'm channelling Lewis Wilson at the moment, I think...) and I want to encourage all of you, next time you want to know how something is done, GO OUT TO THE TORCH and FIGURE IT OUT!! I guarantee that you will learn FAR MORE that way, than if you simply look it up on the internet.

Hot glass is something that you need to learn not only by reading about it, but even more so by doing it. It's the interaction between head, eyes and hands that will make you proficient, not just by reading about it, and getting tips, tricks and shortcuts.

Let me explain it another way: Some one telling that they made a certain set in the color combination with ink blue and sage green, and then melted silver foil on top will allow you to COPY that color combo, and make a similar set, or at least get that look to your beads.

However, an hour or so at the torch, experimenting with colors and foils and frits and enamels, trying to figure it out on your own, will teach you (whether you know it or not, and regardless of whether you actually figure out how to duplicate the other person's beads!) SO MUCH MORE!!

And yes, I realize that you all do that, anyway. I just want to encourage you to rely less on the internet, and more on your torch in order to grow as beadmakers.

Can someone give me a hand down off this soapbox? Kimberly? Beth? Anyone?
Schermo

Naw, no hand down, but I'll join you on this one! I started making beads 8 or 9 years ago (OMG, has it been that long? Is Lewis strong enough to channel both of us???). At that time, IF you found a teacher, you PAID to learn from them. If you wanted that knowledge, you were happy to empty your pocket book!!! No whining about how much it cost, how far you had to travel, etc. Then, you PRACTICED, EXPERIMENTED, READ BOOKS, PRACTICED, PRACTICED, PRACTICED. If you were lucky, you found others who were doing the same thing. If you weren't so lucky, you kept on trying on your own. If you saw something you liked, you went home and FIGURED IT OUT!!! There was no one to ask, really. You queried the glass and you LEARNED!! If I saw a bead I liked, I went home and experimented until I could come close. While experimenting, I usually found out some things that I would not have if the maker of that bead just gave me the recipe. In fact, very often, I discovered things that I really liked and got sidetracked, never making the bead I had intended to figure out. Sometimes, I figured the bead out and used what I learned to do something different. I think the only things I ever intentionally copied were beads that I had been shown in the few classes I managed to take. I copied them to learn a technique, then went on from there.
Tips and tricks were just that: tiny hints that might lead you to something big. They were not complete "how to's". They were the frosting, not the whole cupcake.
I try to work the same way now. Yep, I read the "tutorials" and the tips and tricks, but then, I try to take that information and apply it in ways that are not outlined anywhere. Sometimes I get something wonderful, sometimes I get mud. But I always learn something. I hope all of the new people getting into glass ( and not so new people, too) can find the appetite for learning that has led glasswork so far. I would hate to see this craft stagnate. It is relatively easy to paint-by-numbers. But when you are faced with a blank canvas, no lines, no instructions, then only your experimentation, learning, knowledge, ideas and creativity will all come together and literally force you to fill that canvas.

My .05 cents worth
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Last edited by Kimberly Affleck : 09-30-2004 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 09-30-2004, 02:09 PM
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firemonkey firemonkey is offline
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Re: I don't mean to poop the party, but...

Hey Lisa,
I can understand where you're coming from. I think this may be one of those "hot button" issues you happened to hit!
I am always happy to share "exactly" any technique I use to make beads I present in Show & Tell. All anyone has to do is PM me.
The interesting thing to me is that even with a detailed step by step instruction, another person will have a different result than I get.
This is what I find so compelling about working with glass- the lack of
"control". All the different variables that go into the creation add up differently each time-even when I try to duplicate my own work! I can seldom get the exact same result each time. This is what keeps me coming back to the torch each night, working til the wee hours.
I think there are two (maybe more?) approaches to this kind of work:
"Results" oriented and "Journey" oriented. Some are more interested in the final product, some are more interested in the journey. Different strokes and all... The process of working is similar yet very different in intent.
For myself, as much as I may fall in love with one of my finished beads,
I love the making of it even more. Needless to say- my success rate is quite low. Luckily, I don't have to depend on the beads for income.

I have learned most of what I do know from WC and ISGB archives. Like Susan said- it's a valuable resource. I think if you were to PM the artist about their work- you may well get the info you seek. On the whole, the community is a generous one. As someone who has a limited amount of money to spend on tools and glass, I can really understand where you're coming from. I've not found this a handicap though, as it has allowed me to
really explore the medium and colors in a way that I probably wouldn't have had I had access to more materials. It has forced me to use what I have in the most creative ways possible. After all, the colors available to all of us are very few-it's what we do with them!
Don't be afraid to post or ask questions, it's what keeps this forum active and interesting. You question was reasonable and party pooper you are not!
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