Projection

[Bordelon]

I am just starting in portraiture and use a projector. It is my understanding that the optimal way to do portraiture would be 1) to draw/paint from a live model, 2) draw/paint from a photograph that you yourself take, and somewhere down at the bottom of the list would be the use of a projector. Why are artists shy about admitting that they use a projector? It's not like you are painting on top of a photograph. The last portrait I did I used a photograph that I did not take myself, and after projecting it, it was so distorted that I ended up having to draw just about everything in anyway. In the class I take we all use a projector and it is amazing how everyone has developed their own style. Also, in spite of using a projector, there are some that still cannot paint a portrait. For me, it is a great tool to get the facial features in the right spot, and the rest is my doing. I would really like to hear what others say about using a projector. Thanks. Sandra

[artbabe21]

Sandra....I think most artists I have spoken with feel it's just plain cheating. That you should do the work from the ground up. Others who don't care for detailed drawings that will be covered up, will go the projector route (most won't admit it) or they will project to get landmarks of the face is all.
Debra Jones aka DJStar here at WC who is an awesome artist mentioned that last fact on one of her WIPs...that she traces to get the proportions right. She's in a hurry with a commission & it works for her.

I've heard that many more studio painters out there of great notoriety do use projectors as well, to crank up production.

[Julieanne]

I think that one is able to learn a lot more if they make themselves do things the hard way, all on their own from beginning to end. Believe me I know it is a challenge to paint from life & sometimes you won't even like the results but you will learn a lot faster. I'm just a beginner myself & it is slow going & can be very frustrating but I feel I am learning a lot more by painting from life. Not only that but it is more fun to sit w/ the person & talk while painting. Practice w/ your family members who love you unconditionally & use a strong light. Sometimes I use a photograph but it never seems to turn out w/ as much life as my life drawings do. Good luck you'll do great.

[Bordelon]

Thank you Cathleen and Julieanne - I appreciate your comments and would appreciate any comments others would make. I guess what I was saying is that it takes some degree of talent even if you use a projector. At my age, I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do since I have only been painting and drawing for a couple of years. Also, I have no one that I feel that I could ask to sit for me unless I paint my husband while he is asleep! Hey, that's an idea.
Sandra

[byron]

my understanding of this issue is this. if you are an illustrator and you gotta crank it out, anything goes 'cause deadlines must be met. if you're a student, and this is how you are taught, ok. but personally, i think that using the projector cheats you of the ability to find how to communicate your vision to your hands. i am finding that i have some serious deficiencies in translating proportion, that the accurate drawing IS the painting, all the rest is coloring. not that color doesn't have its own issues. i could go on for a while but i guess the thing is, in this day and age, the ability to draw accurately from life directly is a prized and valuable possesion, the strongest tool an artist can possess. a cornerstone of your abilities. now off to ponder this issue some more.
-byron-

[Dana Design]

All very good points. However, I think whatever method works for you is the right method. You're right! It's in the placement of color that defines your style. Paint now! If at a later date you want to draw from life, then do it.

I, personally, do a lot of measuring, not necessarily on a grid although I have used a grid (now, I'm too impatient), but my measurements still give me a good rendition of my subject.

I don't consider anything cheating. Whether a grid is used, whether measurements are used or whether someone wants to use a projector. So what? It's the final product that is the story, the painting. You are the artist and your work will determine that.

Years ago, my first instructor gave her students diagrams of paintings...a paint by numbers deal, if you will. I knew that's not what I wanted to do. So, I learned to draw again by taking classes. Lots of them. I still measure just to make sure of my proportions.

Do what you are most comfortable doing. And enjoy!

[ShellyF]

I agree with Dana, whatever works for you, that's what you should do. Funny enough though, some of the portraits I struggle with the most are ones that I have traced guidelines on for proportions. I think that once I trace those on (thinking that I am saving time), somehow my brain thinks it must be right, but sometimes things get shifted or changed as the drawing or painting goes on but at the back of my head I am thinking "well the proportions are right, so what's the problem" My better paintings have been free hand because I am always thinking, always double checking, always thinking with an open mind that something could or should be changed.

But bottom line is you are creating the artwork, so you can create it any old way you want!

[Bordelon]

I so appreciate your comments. So many good points. I do think that drawing from real life is the ideal, but using a projector isn't cheating any more than digital art is cheating, it's just a different method. Using a projector gave some of my classmates a chance to start painting when they never painted before. They would never have tried if it meant drawing the figure first. Another point is that I am not doing this for a living and just for sheer enjoyment. Thank you Byron, Dana and Shelly. I wish someone would respond who does use a projector. Sandra

[jocelynsart]

I was not going to bother with this subject again but will try and make some points.
Most Importrant: Don't assume that an artist who traces Cannot Draw. It is essential, IMHO, to be a great draftsperson Before considering using a projector to save time and to save the cleanliness of one's working surface. IE: I can Definately draw and draw well, from life or from reference. I have 2 portfolios full of life drawings as well as many of my small personal pieces, I just choose to hand draw my subjects leisurely. I basically choose whatever I feel like doing. Sometimes, I don't feel like "drawing" out a time consuming drawing and I also don't Need it for my painting. The less on my canvas, the better. Most drawing is done with the paint anyway. Values I do not draw in, I establish that with my monochromatic underpainting. So, no need to draw and shade with a pencil.
I have been drawing since the age of 3. I have not used a projector till I was 27. Projecting helped speed up the placement of the main subject or main body of the composition onto my good surface. Basically, as a head start to the rest of the drawing that would need to be done. Good surface means the surface where the finished piece will be on. IE: canvas.
However, many of my portraits need things in them that are not in my main reference. IE: changeing hair, adding different clothes, altering shadows, putting persons from 4+ diff. references in a scene like in front of their cottage, total different compositions than any of the reference material provided has, adding people, shooting arms or hands or other body parts needed for the people in the painting, you name it. Therefore, the idea that an artist takes a photo and projects that exact photo image onto a canvas and voila, gets a perfect portrait or paintings a fallacey. #1: most photos do not project well. Heads are lost in dark backgrounds, details don't visually show up, etc. #2 No client wants just a straigth copy of a photo. They want a painting.
The last portrait I did I will use as an example as to how most of my commissins go. This tended to be a fairly easy one compared to some. (a WIP thread is available too). I had a portrait to do of a little girl and her stuffed animals. We had a basic reference image that we liked. But, her animals were turned so that one or 2 of their faces did not show. My projector sits in my basement. I do whatever necessary tracing down there than come up and work at my dining room table, in natural light, from my several references. I projected what little I had from the reference, or newly created reference, that was staying the same. This entails doing a fast fast loose drawing with a pencil onto the canvas surface, via projecting the main ref shot, outlining the large shapes. I had it worked out where exactly she sat in the composition and how much of the animals would show and how much negative space I wanted and where. Whatever I need to draw by hand afterwards, I leave blank in the tracing. This way I can fool around drawing in the one stuffed animal that I had to add as well as change the position of another whose face we needed in. I had separate reference shot of the main important animals so could correct or draw them easily by hand. Then, I have a crappy loose sketched traced shape of the girl and her features. I then need to sit, observe the references and draw a more detailed drawing of her, her eyes, her mouth her nose, etc. Also, projecting tends to distort the shapes and size sometimes so eyeballing, drawing so that it looks more natural is also needed. Her hair needed reshaping and cleaning up. I could not do any of this if I was not a skilled drafts person nor if I had no experience drawing people. Tracing would not give me the finished portrait I wanted. It is Not what makes me able to paint and draw. It will not give me a Good portrait as opposed to a Bad portrait. Like Shelly mentioned. I think what is misunderstood is the little significance of the tracing. The simplicity of it as well is very apparent. 99% of the work is in the actual painting, unless it Is to be a drawing.
If I sound like I am taking this personal, I think I have to admit that I do somewhat. It was not until I came here that I realized this is considered bad or cheating. To me, it was just a stage or a tool in my work. PLus, who did I have to prove I could draw to? Not myself for sure. This subject seems to appear in here the odd time, often by a new member or someone who is rarely in here. I have learned to not let others know that I do make use of the projector somewhat, for getting on my main body or subject. I have been attacked openly and indirectly via a signature line, etc. here. So, I tend to be skeptical as to the reason for this subject suddenly appearing in here. So, that is my answer to why I am reluctant to mention that stage in my work around here. However, I feel you are asking this as a legitimate question and interest. :-) I am not accusing you of questinable motivations for starting this thread.
No one lives with someone and sees their process for creating a painting from basic reference, all the instinctual parts in the painting, to the finished painting. They often assume things. Maybe that is a compliment to the quality or the skill, maybe not. If those same people that condemn "cheating" by tracing were present for the full extent of a painting then they would be far more aware. But, that is not possible via the Internet.
Painting and drawing is a leisure and often a job as well as being an artists leisure enjoyment in life, for many artists. A job needs to be done as we all know. This is for any career. Life is not a boat ride. We all need to make a living. Better to make that living using somethign that one lieks to do anyway. Someone who uses a certain process or stage in their Job that maybe they don't use in their Leisure does not mean they are copping out or losing the drive or creativity that they have when doing it in their leisure time. Most people's jobs are not the same as their hobbies or true passions. A job is a job, even if you enjoy it. I can say that I am glad I can apply what I do for fun anyway into making a living. Yes, the pieces are approached slightly differently. Someone's waiting for their portrait whereas I can fool around forever on my own personal projects. Like any job, in order to maintain that job and make a living, one needs to adhere to the expected time the job needs to be done in, deal with their customers, etc. An artist using their talent to procur their living is no different. Illustration is not a bad word either! lol Illustration is an application of a talent and skill someone has. It is not easy to become a sought after illustrator. Only the most stand out and unique people with a unique style could get the jobs. Art directors need to want You in lieu of another artist.
After this probably too long, too personal final word I will ever make regarding "cheating" by tracing I will summarize by saying that my strong personal opinion is that tracing really should only be utilized once someone is a strong draftsperson, not looked at as a crutch for someone who cannot draw. If someone feels that "oh, no wonder she /he produces work so much better than mine, she/he traces on their subject first", then they should try doign a quick tracing and see if they produce a painting more to their liking or self-expectations. My opinion is it won't make or break the painting.
Happy painting everyone
Jocelyn

[jocelynsart]

I have decided I would liek to add one more small point.
You have to be happy and feel good about what you do. That is the most important thing I have learned from participating in an online forum with other artists.
Don't worry about what people you don't know or don't know you personally feel about you or the work you love. Who cares, in the long run, what others say. Do what works for you and do what you love. :-)
IE: I love working from photos and reference more than working from life. Being able to do this has created a living opportunity. It opens up what I can do for people and the subject possibilities.
I draw when I want, I trace up a sketch when I want. Often, I have to mix them.
I love painting better than drawing. I love people as the subject more than anything else. I need to paint realistically to be happy. Alot of the times I buck traditional rules but am always open to new approaches.
Accepting each other for their differences as artists is what makes it fun to view other's work. Feeling defensive and judged as well as feeling judgemental are not a good feelings to me.
Life is short. Do what you love and stop worrying about other's judgement unless you truly feel it is important enough a judgement to worry about. No one is perfect.

[Chiers]

Originally Posted by jocelynsart

I have decided I would liek to add one more small point.
You have to be happy and feel good about what you do. That is the most important thing I have learned from participating in an online forum with other artists.
Don't worry about what people you don't know or don't know you personally feel about you or the work you love. Who cares, in the long run, what others say. Do what works for you and do what you love. :-)
IE: I love working from photos and reference more than working from life. Being able to do this has created a living opportunity. It opens up what I can do for people and the subject possibilities.
I draw when I want, I trace up a sketch when I want. Often, I have to mix them.
I love painting better than drawing. I love people as the subject more than anything else. I need to paint realistically to be happy. Alot of the times I buck traditional rules but am always open to new approaches.
Accepting each other for their differences as artists is what makes it fun to view other's work. Feeling defensive and judged as well as feeling judgemental are not a good feelings to me.
Life is short. Do what you love and stop worrying about other's judgement unless you truly feel it is important enough a judgement to worry about. No one is perfect.

Well I just had to say amen to that!

My drawing skills I admit are not the best, nor the worst. I do practise drawing in effort to improve. However....when I want to draw, I draw.....when I want to paint, I paint and will often trace my subject. Be it human, or otherwise. And if I was a fantastic, terrific pencil artist I would still trace or project for my paintings. Like I said, when I want to paint, I want to paint.

Do you ever have times when you really would rather use watercolor instead of oils. Or acrylics instead of colored pencils? Same thing...

[Bordelon]

Jocelyn - You don't know how much I appreciate your taking the time to give me a thorough answer. You were right - my question was one free of any motives. As a beginner, I am amazed at the opinions I have read on Wet Canvas and other places on the Internet. In my naivete I have managed to ask some dumb questions, but I am really very interested in hearing what people say. I think members of WC should realize that there are people like me, starting to do art in their 60's, who never even thought about how art is done or what "rules" there are. I spent my adult life working as a social worker!

I looked at your site, and your work is so wonderful. I doubt there are many people that could produce such good work no matter what method they used.


Because I am able to use a projector, I have been able to do something that I really love doing. I have tried my hand at a lot of different things, but portraits are the thing I have come to really love doing. I love the human face. My work is not great, but my friends and family are very encouraging and have been happy with the portraits I have given them. I feel that I will continue to learn, but have no desire to draw a portrait from scratch. As you pointed out, a lot of drawing has to be done even if you trace or use a projector.

I am taking a vow today to not feel judged. Thank you for helping me see how foolhardy that is.

Sandra

[Joe Rucker]

I think that if you add something to the image beyond a straight copy then fewer people will have issues with the use of a projector and if you shoot your own photos I think that helps add to your integrity too. It is, however, clearly wrong to be dishonest in projection use; if you use it then admit it.

Gerhard Richter is huge in the art world and uses a projector, but he changes the image just enough so that it moves beyond basic copying. A lot of the time he does a smear or blur across the whole thing. But what really hits me are his compositions which are usually pretty intriguing if at the very least abrupt.
Here are some examples I hope you like them: -->all 3 are oil

[Dana Design]

Originally Posted by Joe Rucker

I think that if you add something to the image beyond a straight copy then fewer people will have issues with the use of a projector and if you shoot your own photos I think that helps add to your integrity too. It is, however, clearly wrong to be dishonest in projection use; if you use it then admit it.

First of all, BRAVA, Joss!

Joe, why in h*** would anyone have "issues" with buying artwork from an artist who used a projector. And why is it "clearly wrong" and "dishonest"? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why is it incumbent upon any artist to admit using a projector? This is wholly a personal choice. It may not be your choice to use one but using words such as "clearly wrong" and "dishonest" is extremely judgmental. Does using one somehow cheapen the work or make it somehow inferior or take money for work out of someone else's pocket if they use a projector? Are these artists who use a projector not really artists?
I understand that this is your opinion and only your opinion and we can take it or leave it, however, there are many new people who come to these boards and if they can be aided by technology to further their painting skills, why not.
Do you consider digital art as art?
Should I toss out my ruler, my compass and my T-square? If I remember correctly, the projector has been used in one form or another since at least the 16th century. Have a nice day!

[artbabe21]

Originally Posted by jocelynsart

You have to be happy and feel good about what you do. That is the most important thing I have learned from participating in an online forum with other artists.
Don't worry about what people you don't know or don't know you personally feel about you or the work you love. Who cares, in the long run, what others say. Do what works for you and do what you love. :-)
IE: I love working from photos and reference more than working from life. Being able to do this has created a living opportunity. It opens up what I can do for people and the subject possibilities.
I draw when I want, I trace up a sketch when I want. Often, I have to mix them.
I love painting better than drawing. I love people as the subject more than anything else. I need to paint realistically to be happy. Alot of the times I buck traditional rules but am always open to new approaches.
Accepting each other for their differences as artists is what makes it fun to view other's work. Feeling defensive and judged as well as feeling judgemental are not a good feelings to me.
Life is short. Do what you love and stop worrying about other's judgement unless you truly feel it is important enough a judgement to worry about. No one is perfect.

Joss!! Amen to that! I am so glad you added that part on...it's well said & I commend you for speaking out about what is really important!!