Panel Panic

[frisbee1948]

Is there anything wrong with painting on good old Fredrix canvas panels? They are cheap and readily available. I know they won't last forever, but I suspect they will last longer than I do and when I'm dead, I won't care if my paintings rot.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on WC about making your own panels, using linen, different grounds, and so forth. I guess this is alright if you enjoy doing it, but I'd rather be painting. So, is there anything I should know about ready made canvas panels that might discourage me from using them?

[JamieWG]

I don't think the Frederix panels are such a good buy. Take a look at these prices for more archival panels instead:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...4&postcount=32

I'd suggest painting on unstretched, primed canvas taped to foamcore instead of those Frederix cardboard panels, if you feel the other options are too expensive. Then you can always glue them to hardboard in the future if you end up with something you love. I buy unstretched primed canvas for about 40 cents a square foot, and add a few coats of additional gesso. The Frederix canvas pads are also fine, and are real canvas. (Add more gesso first if you can.)

Jamie

[Marc Hanson]

Originally Posted by frisbee1948

Is there anything wrong with painting on good old Fredrix canvas panels? They are cheap and readily available. I know they won't last forever, but I suspect they will last longer than I do and when I'm dead, I won't care if my paintings rot.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on WC about making your own panels, using linen, different grounds, and so forth. I guess this is alright if you enjoy doing it, but I'd rather be painting. So, is there anything I should know about ready made canvas panels that might discourage me from using them?

I was just looking through some old work from before I went to art school, done in the late 60's, early 70's (at least 34-35 years old), all on Frederix panels. They are in great shape, no rotting, changing of paint film, or color that I can tell. I know that isn't old from a conservators point of view, but if you are learning and don't consider them permanent, 'keepable' paintings, that is quite a while.

If financially that is what you need to use, I feel it is unfair to say not to. My dislike beyond that, is the way paint looks like on them. And even at that it's just personal taste. There are other pretty reasonably priced ready made panels on the market that you might try. But they are more expensive than the Frederix panels. If cost isn't a huge issue, Frederix makes what they call an 'archival' panel now. I don't know about the 'archival' part of it, but they are made of linen and are on MDF board. Might be worth a look.

Jamie types faster than I do, and I agree with her too. But if all you have available are the Frederix, don't feel 'guilty' using them. The idea is to paint, paint and paint. When you have more experience(I say that not knowing what your experience level is, so excuse me if you are experienced), you'll probably find that the Frederix panels will not suit our needs. Then you like the rest of us will probably start to search out other products.

[LeeHaber]

Originally Posted by paintbox1

I was just looking through some old work from before I went to art school, done in the late 60's, early 70's (at least 34-35 years old), all on Frederix panels. They are in great shape, no rotting, changing of paint film, or color that I can tell. I know that isn't old from a conservators point of view, but if you are learning and don't consider them permanent, 'keepable' paintings, that is quite a while.

If financially that is what you need to use, I feel it is unfair to say not to. My dislike beyond that, is the way paint looks like on them. And even at that it's just personal taste. There are other pretty reasonably priced ready made panels on the market that you might try. But they are more expensive than the Frederix panels. If cost isn't a huge issue, Frederix makes what they call an 'archival' panel now. I don't know about the 'archival' part of it, but they are made of linen and are on MDF board. Might be worth a look.

Jamie types faster than I do, and I agree with her too. But if all you have available are the Frederix, don't feel 'guilty' using them. The idea is to paint, paint and paint. When you have more experience(I say that not knowing what your experience level is, so excuse me if you are experienced), you'll probably find that the Frederix panels will not suit our needs. Then you like the rest of us will probably start to search out other products.

I agree with Marc. I have paintings done in the late 50's at Pratt...
in fine condition. Trouble is I used Damar varnish in those days...that's another story.

[frisbee1948]

I have some unstretched canvas, so I think I'll try Jamies idea. I assume I should leave about a two inch border all the way around (that is, use a 12 x 14 piece for an 8 x 10 painting).

How do you fasten it to the foam core? Tape? Push pins?

What do the extra coats of gesso do?

I hope these are not stupid questions, but I'm still fairly new to all of this.

[Marc Hanson]

Originally Posted by frisbee1948

I have some unstretched canvas, so I think I'll try Jamies idea. I assume I should leave about a two inch border all the way around (that is, use a 12 x 14 piece for an 8 x 10 painting).

How do you fasten it to the foam core? Tape? Push pins?

What do the extra coats of gesso do?

I hope these are not stupid questions, but I'm still fairly new to all of this.

I do this too to use up scraps or if I haven't prepared a board of the right size on hand. Clear packing tape, a piece of hardboard and the canvas. Your board or foam core should be a coupl;e of inches larger than the outside dimension of your canvas piece. I usually leave a couple of inches clearance all the way around the image size for the taping. I like to start in the middle with about a 2" piece on each side(4). I sort of stretch just as you would if stapling canvas to stretcher bars, moving out towards the corners from the center with say 3 pieces on each side. Then when it is taped down with these pieces, use full length pieces and tape the complete edge. The reason I like to stretch it tight in this way is that I don't like to have to work around 'ripples' in the surface.

I use hardboard just because it is a firmer surface to push the brush up against. If weight is a concern then by all means foam core is good too.

Someone else will have to catch you on the 'gesso' thing, I use oil or lead primed canvas.

[JamieWG]

Originally Posted by LeeHaber

I agree with Marc. I have paintings done in the late 50's at Pratt...
in fine condition. Trouble is I used Damar varnish in those days...that's another story.

What happened to the ones with the Damar varnish, Lee?

I have Frederix cardboard panels that warped before I even got a chance to paint on them! I use them only for color charts and mixing experiments since seeing that. I also did a few paintings on them that I soooo wish were on archival panels.

...What Marc said about taping down the canvas! I apply extra acrylic primer (acrylic gesso) to the pre-primed stuff so that it will have greater absorption and to keep the oil in the paint from getting down into the canvas. If I don't add extra primer, I feel like the paint just slides around and is hard to control and layer.

Jamie

[Tony Perrotta]

Hi frisbee, I had quite a few Fredrix sitting around, I used them some. I started making my own panels plain, and now canvased. I would say use the Fredrix, I am using up my good panels doing work I am not at all happy with, wasting my time and money. Jamie's method is good,I think I am going to try that as I have canvas here. For now until I can paint the way I am trying to I am using paper that I gesso, the Fredrix I have around and will try the unstretched canvas, it's alot cheaper all around.

One thing I do to the fredrix is gesso the front and the back to make it more resistant to water. I has a classmate a few weeks ago who's Fredrix panels curled alot on a very misty humid day.
Save your money and paint on anything you can, when you are ready to paint work that is good enought to frame then worry about more expensive supports.



Tony

[LeeHaber]

Originally Posted by JamieWG

What happened to the ones with the Damar varnish, Lee?

I have Frederix cardboard panels that warped before I even got a chance to paint on them! I use them only for color charts and mixing experiments since seeing that. I also did a few paintings on them that I soooo wish were on archival panels.

...What Marc said about taping down the canvas! I apply extra acrylic primer (acrylic gesso) to the pre-primed stuff so that it will have greater absorption and to keep the oil in the paint from getting down into the canvas. If I don't add extra primer, I feel like the paint just slides around and is hard to control and layer.

Jamie

Hi Jamie, What else to do in this weather.
I know a conservator, trained in Florence, Italy and
who worked for a major museum in Europe on old master paintings.
I visited her in her gallery in Alexandrai VA with my friend John Bellinger (NAPAP), Kevin M. and another painter. We were in DC to see the Sargent show.
She showed us an experiment. She painted a canvas with pure white and every 6 months put a 2" strip of Damar vertically down the canvas.
The oldest strip was if I recall, 4 years old. It looked like a paint chip
of yellow you might see in a paint store. The yellowing began after 6 months (very fient) and darkened incrementaly. The last strip looking quite dark. She had made this to show to artists in her gallery.


She did say one thing, as a conservator, she said it's impossible to
clean an unvarnished painting.

As for her own varnishing, she made her own mix.

There are more knowledgable people on this subject than me, but after seeing her test I stopped using it.

Regarding your workshop thread...I wouldn't take any workshop without
knowing the artist...you might be a whole lot better than her. It's like
sex therapists...anyone can do it without credentials.

[JamieWG]

Lee, thanks for your explanation. Michael Skalka has posted extensively on Wetcanvas on this issue. Of course, Damar can be removed, and if you have paintings with yellowed damar, you may want to do so sooner rather than later, as it becomes more and more difficult to take it off as time marches on, requiring stronger and stronger solvents.

Michael and the conservators at the National Gallery recommend Gamvar. The National Gallery staff designed Gamvar in conjunction with Robert Gamblin. That's why I switched over to it last year. It is more flexible, yellows less, and is easier to remove. It even contains some UV filters.

Jamie

Originally Posted by LeeHaber

Hi Jamie, What else to do in this weather.
I know a conservator, trained in Florence, Italy and
who worked for a major museum in Europe on old master paintings.
I visited her in her gallery in Alexandrai VA with my friend John Bellinger (NAPAP), Kevin M. and another painter. We were in DC to see the Sargent show.
She showed us an experiment. She painted a canvas with pure white and every 6 months put a 2" strip of Damar vertically down the canvas.
The oldest strip was if I recall, 4 years old. It looked like a paint chip
of yellow you might see in a paint store. The yellowing began after 6 months (very fient) and darkened incrementaly. The last strip looking quite dark. She had made this to show to artists in her gallery.


She did say one thing, as a conservator, she said it's impossible to
clean an unvarnished painting.

As for her own varnishing, she made her own mix.

There are more knowledgable people on this subject than me, but after seeing her test I stopped using it.

[tomnackid]

I have always like the convenience, price, and portability of canvas panels but I always feel guilty using them for anything but practice and illustrations intended for reproduction. However I recently read in "The Acrylics Book" by Barclay Sheaks that canvas panels, cardboard, mat board, and even cheap construction paper and newsprint should last for at least a century if not longer if coated front and back with an acrylic varnish. apparently acids left in cheap pulp paper during the manufacturing process speed up the oxidation of cellulose fibers causing them to deteriorate. A coat of acrylic varnish seals out the oxygen. I primarily paint in oils, but I have been using canvas panels coated with spray on acrylic varnish lately--and feeling a little less guilty! (I also plan to cover the backs of the panels with a sheet of bristol paper after they are framed so they don't scream "cheap canvas panel" to anyone who looks at the back).

PS: A couple of years ago I was cleaning out my mother's house in preparation for selling it and came across some oil paintings I did in an art class I was in in first or second grade (at least 33 years ago I hate to admit). They were all on plain, unvarnished Fredrix panels and some were stored in a very hot attic and others in a very damp basement. I did not notice any signs of deterioration. (Which was too bad since they were really really horrible!)

[Guerrilla Painter II]

This is my first post on wet canvas.

Great thread. This is my solution for the panel dilema. I like to use 100% rag 4 ply mat board. It is avaliable in lots of colors and you can get it cut to whatever dimentions you like. I ordered 48 8"x11", and 24 5"x7" (cut from 4 32"x40" sheets). The whole job cost me $60 at a local frame shop. I coat both sides (to prevent warping) with Acrylic varnish and hang them to dry with clothes pins.
I have a 9"x12" foam core panel that fits in my pochade box. I covered both faces with velcro. When my mat boards are dry i put little self adhesive velcro dots on the back sides. The mat boards are ready for painting sesions. Later I can peal off the velcro dots and remove any residual adheasive. I figure that in the end I spend less on the mat board than I would on Panels. I like the fact that they take up less room, and they are much lighter than gessoed masonite.

[Gubster Bug]

frisbee1948,

I just checked a Grumbacher panel (similar to Fredrix) I painted in 1963 and it shows very little in the way of aging, on the gessoed canvas side of the panel. That is, nothing that affects either the paint film or the various spots left blank (it was my first picture). The printing on the board side seems to have faded somewhat, but the board itself doesn't feel brittle and certainly shows not obvious decomposition. That's 41 years, and it seems likely to have 41 more in it-- though, candidly, by that time both the picture and I will be landfill, but for very different reasons: I'm non-archival, but the painting is, ah, pre-technical.

Bug

[frisbee1948]

Over the weekend, I bought some hardboard, cut it up into 8x10s and gessoned them four times. I figure it cost me about 50 cents for each 8x10. That saves me about $1.50 over the lowest price I could find on the internet.

Figuring the time I spent and the money I saved, I would have been better off working for minimum wage.

I think, in the future, I will just buy the panels.

I do like the way it feels to paint on the panels. The paint seems to flow more freely.

[silk]

I like the way a single primed linen mounted on a panel grabs the paint. It's hard to explain how different it feels from plain old cotton or another surface. Patsy