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  #16   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-14-2001, 02:21 PM
Cindy Cindy is offline
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I removed mine all together ---

just reflects how serious I feel.



BTW I appreciate Scott's new photo.
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Old 09-14-2001, 03:19 PM
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Old 09-14-2001, 03:31 PM
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jenrou jenrou is offline
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Scott's tinyhead

Actually, I was thinking of putting up my WWII uncle's photo in his uniform. I like Scott's new photo. Everyone feels differently about things. This is America, and where would we be without our military???
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Old 09-14-2001, 04:15 PM
joemajury joemajury is offline
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Re: Re: Why I Changed my Tinyhead...

Quote:
Originally posted by diphascon


Though I felt I should change my tinyhead as well, I have to admit that I dislike Scott B's new one quite a lot ...

servus

martin

GEESH,
You cant even be proud to be an American now, without offending someone.

Scott, you show that photo with PRIDE, it is because you wore it, that people have the right to voice their different opinions, even although they suck!!!!!

Joe
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Old 09-15-2001, 03:58 AM
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jenrou jenrou is offline
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Smile You said it, Joe

The very people (often) who accept America's food, money, military help, bite us in the rear! Normally we just do these things, pay our taxes, etc. and don't say much, maybe grumble among our selves at times, until someone speaks/strikes against our patriotism, our people, our beliefs, then we bite back.

Everyone has that option to feel proud or not proud of their nation. We happen to hold our military in very high regard, and thankfully, it isn't sent to war very often, unless pushed to the wall.

This is an emotional time for everyone, and we all may say some things people don't agree with. It isn't personal, to a point.


I'll try to behave myself....
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Old 09-15-2001, 06:09 AM
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sandge sandge is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Why I Changed my Tinyhead...

Quote:
Originally posted by joemajury
GEESH,
You cant even be proud to be an American now, without offending someone.

Scott, you show that photo with PRIDE, it is because you wore it, that people have the right to voice their different opinions, even although they suck!!!!!

Joe

Sorry, if this isn't popular but I have the same reaction to Scott's tinyhead as diphascon. I shudder everytime I see it ... and it has nothing to do with being against anyone's pride in being American.

Images carry different meanings for different folks.
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Old 09-15-2001, 07:38 AM
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JeffG JeffG is offline
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Re: Re: Why I Changed my Tinyhead...

Quote:
Originally posted by diphascon


...I have to admit that I dislike Scott B's new one quite a lot ...

Get used to it. Whatever you thought America was, its going to be different from now on.
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Old 09-15-2001, 09:37 AM
Cindy Cindy is offline
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Angry Re: Re: Re: Why I Changed my Tinyhead...

Quote:
Originally posted by JeffG


Get used to it. Whatever you thought America was, its going to be different from now on.

Yes. And come on people, let's not make this harder on our military by expressing negative attitudes towards them, especially in public. They are the courageous men and women who make it possible for us to spout off.
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Old 09-15-2001, 08:46 PM
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jenrou jenrou is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why I Changed my Tinyhead...

Quote:
Originally posted by Cindy


Yes. And come on people, let's not make this harder on our military by expressing negative attitudes towards them, especially in public. They are the courageous men and women who make it possible for us to spout off.

Yes!!
There have plenty of times when other countries were very glad to see the American uniform show up. Mostly our military has been helping other countries, more than in our own country. We don't look for war, or try to take over other countries for power or money. I haven't seen other countries uniforms on our shores helping us too often, but of course they do sometimes help in other places, some more than others.
Let's get real, folks, even if we are unhappy about it. For some time, we will all see a lot of uniforms everywhere.
In this country, we feel we are already at war, attacked, so feelings are a little sensitive.
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Old 09-15-2001, 08:59 PM
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scottb scottb is offline
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I wore my uniform in pride with pride when I served, and I feel the same way about it now.

Those that dislike the uniform or its image (for whatever reason) can still sleep well tonight, knowing that the men and women in uniform will protect your liberties just the same. Unfortunately, there are millions of people who have paid the price for that night's sleep.

As Father Dennis O'Brien (USMC) said:

-----------------------------------------------------
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and who's coffin is draped by the flag
who allows the protester to burn the flag.

It is the soldier, not the politician,
who has given his blood, his body, his life,
who has given us these FREEDOMS.
-----------------------------------------------------

And this one, "Remember Me", author unknown:

-----------------------------------------------------

Remember Me?

Some people call me Old Glory. Others call me the Star-Spangled Banner. Whatever they call me, I am your flagthe flag of the United States of America. Something has been bothering me. I thought I might talk it over with you.

I remember sometime ago people lined up on both sides of the street to watch the parade, and naturally I was always there, proudly waving in the breeze. When your daddy saw me coming, he immediately removed his hat and placed it over his heart.
Remember?

And you.. I remember you standing there, straight as a soldier.
You didnt have a hat, but you were giving the right salute.
Remember your little sister? Not to be outdone, she was saluting the same as you, with her hand over her heart. Remember?

What happened? Im still the same old flag. Oh, I have added a few more stars since you were a boy, and a lot more blood has been shed since those parades of long ago. But I dont feel as proud as I used to. When I come down your street, you stand there with your hands in your pockets. I may get a small glance,
but then you look away. I see the children running around and shouting. They dont seem to know who I am. I saw one man take off his hat and look around. He didnt see anybody else with his hat off, so he quickly put his back on.

Is it a sin to be patriotic anymore? Have you forgotten what I stand for and where Ive been? Anzio, Normandy, Omaha Beach, Guadalcanal, Korea and Vietnam. Take a look at the memorial honor role sometime.

Look at the names of those who never came back in order to keep this republic free. One nation under God. When you salute me, you are actually saluting them.

Well, it wont be long until Ill be coming down your street again.
So when you see me, stand straight, place your right hand over your heart. Ill salute you by waving back, and Ill know that you remembered.

-----------------------------------------------------

I am the Flag - Author Unknown

I Am The Flag

Im a piece of cloth with colors three
And in the wind I wave so free
To stand for peace and liberty
I am the flag

Ive seen the mountains and the glen
At Valley Forge the freezing men
And Bunker Hill where it began
I am the flag

And on the decks while burning bright
I heard Ive just begun to fight
While cannons crashed throughout the night
I am the flag

When brothers shed their brothers blood
The nation split but there I stood
To ease the pain as best I could
I am the flag

To other lands Ive had to go
Ive seen the bodies in the snow
And touched those you will never know
I am the flag

Ive waved from ships from tents and trees
In the hurricane and gentle breeze
And lain gently folded on widows knees
I am the flag

Despite the wars in which Ive flown
And the victories that my history's shown
I stand quiet o'er one whose names unknown
I am the flag

I never protest where Im sent
I try to always represent
The spirit of my government
I am the flag

For many reasons I have waved
My stripes have seen downtrodden saved
And been soaked in blood of men called brave
I am the flag

Ive been cast aground and set on fire
Been spat upon in times of ire
But Ive always hoisted that much higher
I am the flag

For God and country here I stand
For peace among my fellow men
I may fall but I will rise again
I am the flag.

-----------------------------------------------------

Cheers.
Scott
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Last edited by scottb : 09-15-2001 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 09-15-2001, 09:55 PM
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Leaflin Leaflin is offline
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Thank you Scott.
I sleep better knowing our men and women in uniform are protecting us to the best of their ability.
I am proud to say my sisters son is in their ranks.
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Last edited by Leaflin : 09-15-2001 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 09-15-2001, 10:07 PM
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jenrou jenrou is offline
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Thumbs up Thought provoking, Scott

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Old 09-17-2001, 09:50 AM
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diphascon diphascon is offline
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Unhappy confessions of a sucking ... well, what?

Quote:
Originally posted by joemajury

You cant even be proud to be an American now, without offending someone.

As my short interjection has induced a certain echo I feel I might, for my own sake, babble a bit more about my thoughts concerning the USA, the present situation, and tinyheads. You shouldnt take this as a general German position or something alike. Germany is inhomogenious, like any large country (well, relatively large), and if you want to "prove" the Germans (or Americans) are like this or that you can find examples for almost anything you want.

First of all I want to assure that I share the general sorrow and mourning due to what has happened. (Like many German males Im not quite good in expressing feeling and emotions properly, that does not mean these things are not inside me, though most of the world population would hardly call me a warm person. Take this as an excuse for the rather short and schematic condolence).

I was born a couple of years after WWII (in the fifties), and my parents taught me that the world was divided principally in two, the western democratic part and the eastern communistic one. We belonged to the democratic, and they told me about the differences and why they considered the western way better and that the existence of democracy was dependent on the strength and activity of the United States, who were the most important of the friendly countries. The presence of American military service in Germany was self-evident to me in these days. I learned about WWII, what Germany was before my time and that the US had been fighting against us and now generously helped to rebuild this country, that was their enemy just a few days ago. That gave me warm and positive feelings concerning the USAmericans and a kind of confidence in these apparently best friends of Germany (to be honest, in the beginning it was not easy to catch for me that the Russians, now the enemies of the US and Germany, were allowed to fight against the Germans with American fighter planes. Later, I recognized that Germany could make profit even from the defeat and that at some time the German economies, rebuilt also with American help, flourished better than e.g. that of the Britains, who had won the war, after all, and I found this a little bit unfair ...).

When I grew older, my positive sympathy concering the US persisted. Nevertheless, the world became a bit more complicated. There were some more countries in the world than I had suspected. I learned a bit about the history of the US (Im not very strong in this field, though), about the declaration of human rights which I thought was a most valuable concept that all the world should honour. I learned, as well, that the strong and beautiful friend of Germany was not infallible. I was still a child during the Vietnam war, and I could observe that there were objections against what was going on there in parts of the German population. Some of the people that objected were clearly under the influence of countries east of Germany, but some were clearly not. I heard frequently the rhetorical question "why do they protest against America and not against the communists", and I did never understand that question, cause the answer was evident to me. If you see someone acting in a manner that you would consider as strange, and this person is your friend, you start talking to him. If he is your enemy, you usually do not have this option. I had to admit that not all Americans always had acted and were acting according to what I thought was the American standard, the human rights, the principles of tolerance, justice and democracy. Such thing is true for any country, but as the US are in the focus of the world, a lot of people saw and see it. I had the feeling the human rights were not really considered as a principle valid for anybody but for US citizens especially, which lowered their value quite a bit (one of the basics of my christian belief is that Gods concept of forgiveness and salvation is necessary and valid for all the world, in other words, every single human needs it, and every single human can get it. This sometimes gives me mind twisters, and hopefully will make me more humble some day).

And, after all (and this is the state Im still in) I had to recognize, beside the virtues, the drawbacks of having a friend that is strong and beautiful. Especially if he knows he is strong and beautiful. He might eventually love his strength and beauty more than anything else, and this takes away some of his beauty. He may occasionally give his friends the feeling that he is not very concerned about that friendship, that it, in reality, is a grace generously given to them and that they should obey instead of complaining about some nothingness. Every person, every nation that is mighty is vulnerable of thinking low of the less mighty, and this may well be the start to the stairway downstairs. You may find it strange and unpleasant that an ugly dwarf warns the bright giant to be cautious about this, and call me what you like to, but I think to some degree I know what Im talking about. - So far about the US and me.

Now for the present situation. This evil, wicked terrorist attack initially made the whole western world rather speechless. The US people, as I can see it from here, as a whole recovered rather quickly (not every individual, of course). The star spangled banner popped out everywhere. This is a thing that I admire the Americans for (this doesnt exist in Germany at present, at least not in a healthy way), that they willingly gather behind a common superordinate objective, and the most superordinate is their nation. So this was made a nation wide affair, and everybody cares. This is one thing that makes the US going strong. On the other hand this willingness to subordination under national interests brings a certain susceptility to seduction and misleading. You may excuse that a German like me is a bit nervous about this potential. And this is, I think, the fear of the US-allied countries, that this emphasis of national welfare and pride could lead the US to do something that is not well thought out, and as the nation is so important for the USAmericans, nobody is going to stop this. The US president has very soon started to talk about a war that the US is in, and I cannot think of this but a bit incautious, for now the pressure is upon him to act like in a war. The enemy, whoever it is, is certainly not a classical target for standard military operations (as lice arent a good target for machine guns). If I understand the terrorists right, assuming they were islamistic extremists, they had a couple of goals: hurt the western world, especially the US, by causing individual and collective pain and economic damage, humiliate the American nation and split the western allied countries, and provoke the US to take out the big hammer and start a big military action, called war. The first goal was achieved, the second I would say rather not, because the US nation has not sunk in despair and the alliances are intact. So I would score 1:1 at the present. Now if the Americans attack Afghanistan or whatever with planes and missiles my score will be 2:1 for the terrorists, because the US could not do them a bigger favour. No matter what the military action could do to bin Laden, the Talebans or whoever in the islamic world, it may even look like a victory, it would be a sure and reliable method to spread the virus of hatred against the Americas and the rest of the west among the islamic world and hatch a bunch of future terrorists as a boomerang. (There are examples for boomerangs in history. The Germans supported the bolshevik revolution in Russia during WWI to destabilize the Zar, and see what we got. The western alliance suported the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan in order to destabilize the Sovjet Union in the eighties, and that was when the unpleasant guys who now claim to be the Afghan Government and bin Laden learned how to make war.). The present US president, as I understand it, has started a policy of "America first and, if possible, alone". Put the US under a shelter of space based anti missile device, leave all international conferences about world wide pollution, withdraw from the near east and live happy ever after. But if the world gets on fire the US will not be untouched, this is a story the present situation tells me. The space shelter is of questionable efficacy imho, and the near east withrawal may be not advisable. As far as I understand all that worldwide islamistic bull**** originated in palestine by unsolved problems between the Arabs and Israel for fifty years. Well, Israel will not solve it, and the only Government that, if any, has enough influence on Isreal to press them to the search for a solution is the US. - Well, to end this section, I would be glad if the US Government could find a more sophisticated solution to fight terrorism than a conventional war.

Now for the tinyhead (and its about the tinyhead and not meant to be an attack against ScottB, who, as far as I have experienced, is a sound person and is giving and doing a lot for this community, that, in my eyes, is a useful and important forum where sensible and thinking persons (artists and folks interested in art often are such) from different countries exchange in a free and refreshing manner about so many things. I couldnt do something alike. I just simply have to face the fact that this very person has a different opinion concerning military service). As stated above I admire the US people for their ability and willingness to stand for their nation no matter what the problem is. What is puzzling me and making me shiver is that this willingness to "do something for America" is quite often connected to the military service and a call for military action that one wants to participate in (the target of my admiration at the moment is more the fire brigades and health services in NY, but, frankly, the free expression of feelings and emotions as well, as I see it on WC, eg.). And this is the context I feel I have to see Scotts new tinyhead. For me war is an ultimo ratio, a tragedy in itself, a victory of the darkness. Well aware that military action sometimes is inevitable, I feel that the sheer fact of war, no matter who wins, is a defeat for humanity and a victory for the evil, because it automatically opens the door to hatred, pain, death, injustice, violation ... Its a synonym of darkest darnkess and deepest sorrow. And living in a democratic society, I suffer from every military action of a democratic free country (also of the presumably necessary ones) because I feel that if it has to go out and kill someone democracy isnt always convincing enough. I shall not blame the soldiers for that, I do not hate the army, I appreciate their stabilizing role, but I suffer from the fact that they are necessary, and if I ever should have to go to fight in some military action, I would certainly not go there joyful and proud for the pain Im possibly going to bring to someone.

Much left unsaid, language barrier alert, feeling a bit empty, I better shut up now.

martin

--

Ich sah des Krieges Ruhm.
Als waers des Todes Saebelkorb,
von Frost durchklirrt, am Strassenrand
lag eines Pferds Gerippe.

Nur eine Kraehe scharrte dort im Schnee nach Aas,
wo Wind die Knochen nagte, Rost das Eisen frass.

--

Last edited by diphascon : 09-17-2001 at 10:08 AM.

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