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Old 03-22-2004, 03:48 PM
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Baxsie Baxsie is offline
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Question Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Weird problem I am having...

Same torch/gas/kiln setup* - nothing has changed. Using Vetrofond and Effetre glass as usual.

When I have a large bead surface area of black or sometimes clear (i.e. a heart or fish body) that I add fins, wings, etc. to, I am getting a foggy area on the black or clear base.

I keep my bead warm by keeping it out in the flame as I warm up a rod closer to the torch, and that is why I asked the 'fuming' question...

At first, I noticed this phenomenon after I had cleaned beads. I thought that it was a water spot on a bead. Could not remove it. Then I found it happening at the torch. If I turn my torch to a very low, very oxidizing flame and heat up the black base to glowing, I can actually get rid of this fogginess and get a nice shiny black surface again. But this is really frustrating!

On a related(?) side note, I am getting a silvery reaction with black and white (both Vetrofond) when I do multilayers in addition to the fogginess. I am working the bead cool and have made sure that it is a neutral to slightly oxidizing flame...

Any ideas?!

Janet
(*minor, propane-oxycon, AIM kiln)
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Last edited by Baxsie : 03-22-2004 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:24 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

It sounds like a localized spot of reduction to me. You're pulling oxygen out of the glass and leaving behind the reduced metal that gives you a shiny, silvery surface. Are you heating these areas more than the rest of the bead?

Robert
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:57 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Hmmm, not sure about the foggy areas, but I have had a definite reaction between Moretti white and Vetrofond black. The edges where the colors meet have had a thin, shiny silver line.
It wasn't expected, but it was sort of cool!
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:04 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orca
Hmmm, not sure about the foggy areas, but I have had a definite reaction between Moretti white and Vetrofond black. The edges where the colors meet have had a thin, shiny silver line.
It wasn't expected, but it was sort of cool!

I get this effect too.

I have also noticed the problem with the 'water spot' syndrome on certain beads. I have never been able to figure it out since it happens pretty randomly to my beads. I can't make it do it on purpose and I can't keep it from happening on purpose. I don't get the fog problem though. I can only see these 'water spots' if I tilt the bead the right way in the light so they never concerned me overmuch.

Hope you get it ironed out. I am curious myself as to what causes it. Glad you asked about it. You aren't alone and my set up is completely different than yours.

~~Mary
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:06 PM
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Baxsie Baxsie is offline
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Thanks for the reply, Robert -

Well... hmmm... the areas getting reduced are varied - not necessarily the areas I am heating more.

Some of the fogginess is in the center of a flat plane bead, where there was less heat. Center = i.e. of a flat heart, the center line being along the mandrel. I find that the sides of the heart get a lot hotter than the center along the mandrel.

This last bead I noticed this on, the fogginess was right in the center of the (flat plane) of the heart, not the sides. Gee, I hope that makes sense.

This is driving me crazy, because I am making the same kind of beads I have always done, and now I am getting this weird reaction on the glass. Nothing has changed that I know if. Well, wait, I did just start using a new bead release, but that would be odd if that was it?

Thanks for your thoughts - I will pay attention and see if the most heated areas correlate with the fogginess more than I originally noticed.

Thanks again,

Janet
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:10 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

That sounds like devitrification to me.
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:11 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Wow - two posts in the time it took me to respond. I must be a slow typist.

Orca - I have seen the definite silvery line between white and black! At first, I thought I mixed up my white and anise white, but I took some known samples, and still got the silver. Interesting the Vetrofond/Moretti blending = silver. That could indeed be the case here. Do you find that it boils easier, too (the combination of the two colors).

Mary Moth - I am so glad I am not the only one with 'water spots'! Yes, they are hard to see, this is the same 'fogginess' I am now noticing at the torch, I think. I have halogen lights in my work station, and I am really tilting and scrutinizing every bead now. This is a mission!

I only noticed the 'water marks' when tilting the bead in direct sunlight. Very random. In fact, I noticed it on a bead done several weeks ago then on one again recently. No idea how to reproduce that.

Thanks for the input, everyone.

EDIT - make that 3 responses while I am typing...LOL

Amy - thanks for the input. I haven't had trouble with black devitrifying before - is this just plain 'ol overheating? (Back to Robert's first thought...!)
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Last edited by Baxsie : 03-22-2004 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:14 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

and maybe go back to your old bead release for a few beads?
bj
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:21 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Are the "foggy" spots areas that you've marvered? Black can get surface pitting if you use a cold graphite marver on it. Before you use graphite on black, you should warm the surface of the graphite a little.

The only other "stupid black trick" that I can think of is the way black will get a layer of fog when you encase it if you don't give it a quick surface heating before you put the clear on. Opaque cobalt does the same thing. It doesn't sound like your fogging is under encasing, though, so this wouldn't explain your problem. Very peculiar!
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:42 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Thanks for the reply. I learned about the potential graphite paddle problems here on WC, and since getting a brass stump shaper, I only use my graphite paddle to lay foil on.

The fogginess I get has been with clear and black (vetrofond), usually with nothing nearby (like on the relatively large surface area of a heart or encased fish).

It is only when other colors are applied to the bead (eyes, fins, beaks), though that I get the 'fog' over the plain surface of the bead... Black by itself is pretty hardy, I have haven't ever boiled it that I know of.

White on black seems to be the biggest offender - then I do get boiling/silver streaks. What is frustrating is that I tried a very oxidizing flame and worked it cooler than my normal place in the flame during this troubleshooting phase, and still got silver and micro bubbling. It did help, though, so I will keep trying out stuff.

I used this combo all the time before, so this is extra frustrating to 'revert' like this! My white Effetre and Vetrofond have become a little mixed up for a few rods, so it may be just different brands reacting.

Thanks again,

Janet
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:03 AM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Glass can't fume glass, but the metals used in colored rods definitely can fume glass.

For example, there are a number of colors in the boro palatte that can intentionally be used to create fuming effects. Though I can't speak from personal experience with regards to soft glass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxsie
I keep my bead warm by keeping it out in the flame as I warm up a rod closer to the torch, and that is why I asked the 'fuming' question...

Try to establish whether this is the culprit or not by experimenting with the variables. See if you can recreate the effect by doing the above intentionally... then you might try keeping your bead warm by holding it under the flame out of the "fume plume" to see if this is a "fix".

... and of course, let us know how it goes!

Dante
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:04 AM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danteism
Glass can't fume glass, but the metals used in colored rods definitely can fume glass.

Ah yes! This is was the real 'root' of my question. (And I am thankful for all of the info presented in this thread - learned lots and glad not to be alone in this.)

I didn't know if soft glass had enough metal content to truly fume another piece of glass.

I'll report any findings/discoveries here...

Janet
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:34 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Hey Janet, Gold Ruby will fume other glass above it in the flame stream for sure...Every time I make a rose with it, and turn to the back of the bead to keep it from cracking, while heating the gold ruby, I get a dull finish from the gold in the rubino fumed onto the back of my bead...I flame polish it off...just an extra step to using this divine color...think I'll go do that right now. hth, Love, Helen
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Old 03-30-2004, 02:52 PM
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Re: Help - can glass fume... glass?!

Thanks for the heads up, Helen! I haven't used rubino yet, but will keep that in mind.

Research update:

I have tried more colors/types of glass - opaque frit, different rod colors (Vetrofond & Effetre) of periwinkle, lapis, yellow, coral, etc. and it appears that white is the culprit for my black/white frying-reduction-whatever problem. Feels better to have at least narrowed it down a bit.

Janet
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