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Old 08-04-2013, 04:43 PM
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JustinBeckett JustinBeckett is offline
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Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Can someone tell me the point of water soluble oil paint vs regular oil paint? Considering the oil paint tacks up when mixed with water. To avoid this I have heard to use water soluble linseed oil and fast drying medium to make it feel normal? But wouldn't that just be the same as using say regular linseed oil and liquin, for fast drying? Don't need turps for thinning, just linseed oil?

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Old 08-04-2013, 05:18 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Not all water soluble oil paint tacks up when mixed with water. Most problems are with one brand only (Artisan) or when people don't know that they need to add water slowly and in small increments. That being said, the main reason I use WMOs is that I can use water to clean my brushes while painting and add small amounts of water when needed to thin the paint.

You can, of course, use traditional oils without solvent, but many folks do not want to use 100% oil as a medium and prefer a medium that is only part oil.

Clean up can also be done with only soap and water for traditional oils, but is easier with WMOs.

Many schools and other organizations do not allow traditional oils - assuming incorrectly that painters will automatically be using solvents - but will allow WMOs.

So, yes, traditional oils can be used solvent free, but it is easier to do so with WMOs.

Hope this gives you some idea as to why some folks use WMOs.

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Old 08-04-2013, 06:10 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

I use 2 or 3 ml OMS per painting. 300 ml for 100 paintings!

I guess, most people use WMO to clean brushes with water or when they have an allergy to regular linseed oil. I clean brushes in sunflower oil.

Last edited by stapeliad : 08-05-2013 at 06:18 AM. Reason: Rudeness
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Old 08-04-2013, 06:32 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

I have a good set of WMOs now (sampling several brands, as is my wont ) but I don't anticipate switching over to WMOs full time, because I can be solvent free by cleaning my brushes with some oil, or, using Turpenoid Natural (non-toxic, non-solvent).

There is some advantage to cleaning brushes with water afterwards, but it wasn't offset for me by the limited brands available as WMO. (I want Old Holland, Blockx, Blue Ridge paints to use too, but these are not WMO.) Mixing some non-WMO with WMO doesn't seem to help with "cleanability" for me, I need to be all WMO for that. I have some WMO paints that are super nasty and tacky (W&N), what a waste of money. The other brands are better, but then I had to learn through trial and error not to use too much water, not to use the product's fast dry medium (Lukas—awful stuff!) and so forth.

I can avoid all this trial and error and weirdness by just using Turpenoid Natural for cleaning my brushes, and continuing to use Blockx, Blue Ridge, and so forth. (Or just clean with walnut oil or linseed oil.)

But, a lot of people seem to work well with WMOs and aren't having any complaints, so for them it's a good deal. Everyone will have a different experience and it's clear when you look at some of the paintings made with WMOs that the paint performs well for these artists.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:52 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Thank you to all of you, this really does help me a lot! I appreciate it! Basically my biggest concern is using turpentine/toxic solvents.

So I think I may give WMO a shot so that I can clean in between colors.

I tried tonight to use regular oils with mixing with only linseed oil, and then drying off on a paper towel, and also cleaning paint off a bit with linseed oil, but it is quite messy! But it worked better than I thought.

Thanks again,

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Old 08-05-2013, 04:39 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Pure oil as a medium is recommended for Alla-Prima technique.
For layered technique 50/50 or Ron`s 70/30 percentage Linseed oil/OMS are unbeatable mediums anyway.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:53 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Interesting, thank you.

Can someone also tell me is turpanoid natural used for cleaning brushes in between colors as well, or only clean up? What makes it natural, without toxins?

And more importantly, can you use any linseed oil with WMO's or does it have to be only water soluble linseed? I noticed the bottles of water soluble linseed are waaay smaller, which could add up in price using it often.

Thanks,

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Last edited by JustinBeckett : 08-05-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:47 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

You can use any regular oil medium for WMO. And it can be compatible with acrylic too.

Turpenoid natural - it is just very highly refined petroleum based thing. A kind of OMS but more powerful. Recommended as a brush cleaner. Better to use in closed jar anyway. OMS has less odor and said to be better for oil mediums.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:20 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Turpenoid Natural is this weird amber fluid, kind of thick, like cream maybe. (Not water-like, which other turpentines and mineral spirits are.) The smell is not unpleasant, but maybe a little chemical.

It is made by Weber (who makes Permalba paints). It's some sort of unique, proprietary formula that has some citrus extract in it (the same stuff that is used in other turpentine substitutes) but the citrus smell in Turp. Natural is not that strong. Whatever the formula is, it's non-toxic and non-flammable. That doesn't mean I want to go hog wild and get it all over myself or start drinking it, but it's far "safer" than turpentine, OMS, or other types of regular paint thinners.

They say in their documentation that it "can" be used as a thinner, to thin paints, but no more than 25% of the mixture or the paint won't dry!

I prefer to not use it as a "thinner" at all, but merely for swishing my brushes in between mixing colors. Sometimes I'll dip a brush in Linseed Oil after swishing it in Turp. Natural to take away some of the traces of Turp. Natural, before I start mixing more colors. I know that's a bit paranoid, because many people DO use Turpenoid Natural for actual mixing, but I think it's too soon to know how exactly Turpenoid Natural will affect paint after decades and decades, so I hope to minimize the amount of it that gets into the actual paint. I think the trace amounts that do get into my mixtures are probably okay.

I use mostly synthetic brushes, and after a painting session I swish my brushes in Turpenoid Natural one last time, wipe them off off on a rag, and then do my usual cleanup with soap and water (often Master's brush soap).

Turpenoid Natural remains dirty and "cloudy" for days after you use it. I don't want to throw it away after one use, so I let the paint solids settle to the bottom (takes days!) and decant the stuff on top and re-use. I usually have several batches of Turp. Natural settling out at a time.

Hope this helps!
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:14 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Turp au naturale is also one of the best things I have found for softening brushes that are not adequately cleaned and become stiff near the ferrule. Saturate the brush and wrap in a plastic bag for a while or overnight, then wash it out with soap and water and it usually gets it nicely back in shape.
It also works very well for palette cleaning and miraculously will soften up paint if you should allow it to get too dry. Same thing saturate it, cover with plastic wrap, let it soak in for a good while, bam, comes right off.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:17 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

You could use any linseed oil or traditional oil medium, with WMO but it will affect the paint's solubility in water. This may affect your ability to rinse brushes or thin the paint with water. Using the WM linseed oil or mediums will maintain the solubility.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:59 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

DO NOT recommended to use as a part of paint medium by conservators:

"Weber claims Turpenoid Natural can be used as a thinner in oil paints in quantities "less than 25%" of the volume of a mixture, and that it should not be used in underpainting or in a wash on the support/ground before painting begins -- the oily component could make a painting that does not dry properly.

We are skeptical of an artist's controlling the addition of this solvent in the heat of the creative moment, and can recommend it only for the brush-cleaning portion of the use guide. If an artist must use a thinner in the earliest stages of an oil painting we recommend a minimal amount of odorless mineral spirits (OMS), which is distributed by many oil paint-making companies. Do not use regular mineral spirits, which contains aromatic solvents that are hazardous, and be sure to follow the ventilation recommendations on the label of the OMS. In fact, it is hardly necessary to use a solvent in oil painting."
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:28 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Don't use Turpenoid Natural (green can) for thinning paint or as a medium. It will not dry, period. Use either Turpenoid "regular" (blue can), Gamsol or similar OMS.

Instead of using Turpenoid Natural to clean brushes, I use Murphy's Oil Soap. Works just as well, is cheaper and can be found in most grocery stores.

I know, we are off-topic!

Having tried a few water-miscible oils myself and having been unhappy with them because of the "clumping" issue upon thinning with water, I'm curious to know what brands are considered best?
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:42 AM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

WMO is compatible with acrylic paints and, therefore, can be tinned (in theory) with regular acrylic mediums (which is always works much better than water when you are using acrylic paints).

As for brush cleaning - there are nothing to be trouble for most artists. Just everything works well - soap, sunflower oil, oil medium, OMS, Natural Turpenoides, Gum turpentine, kerosene, detergents, Nail varnish remover, acetone, nitrocellulose varnish solvent, toluene and paper towels.

Most popular cleaners here are Murphy's Oil Soap, drying oil, and OMS. Some artist's use citrus thinners.

Last edited by Gigalot : 08-06-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:22 PM
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Re: Oil paint vs water soluble oil paint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
DO NOT recommended to use as a part of paint medium by conservators:

"Weber claims Turpenoid Natural can be used as a thinner in oil paints in quantities "less than 25%" of the volume of a mixture, and that it should not be used in underpainting or in a wash on the support/ground before painting begins -- the oily component could make a painting that does not dry properly.

We are skeptical of an artist's controlling the addition of this solvent in the heat of the creative moment, and can recommend it only for the brush-cleaning portion of the use guide. If an artist must use a thinner in the earliest stages of an oil painting we recommend a minimal amount of odorless mineral spirits (OMS), which is distributed by many oil paint-making companies. Do not use regular mineral spirits, which contains aromatic solvents that are hazardous, and be sure to follow the ventilation recommendations on the label of the OMS. In fact, it is hardly necessary to use a solvent in oil painting."
Yes, I read that same thing at AMIEN, which inspired me to avoid using Turpenoid Natural in color mixing.

I have a little jar of OMS (in a small covered jar) and when I need to thin with OMS, I use a little. But most of the time I just thin with medium.

The reviews for Turpenoid Natural on DickBlick seem to say that mixing colors with smaller amounts of Turp Natural can sometimes work (the colors will dry) but we still don't know the long-term effects and I prefer not to take the chance.

I have heard the claim that WMOs can be mixed with acrylics, but I don't trust that either. You can paint on top of acrylics (like you can with oils) but I wouldn't take a chance with painting with both acrylics and WMOs at the same time.
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