Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Cyan, Magenta, Yellow Primary Mixtures

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  • #991072
    Tiasa
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        The end of another thread turned into a discussion of whether or not the true primary colors were cyan, magenta, and yellow or the familiar red, yellow, and blue. I had to try some of the CMY mixtures because I couldn’t visualize how this would work.

        Below is a color wheel done with Golden Acrylics. You can probably find the equivalent oil paint by using the Color Index Numbers under the Primary Names (PY74, PB15:4, PR122).


        Basic Color Wheel

          [*]3 Primaries (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow)
          [*]3 Secondaries (Red, Blue, Green)
          [*]6 Tertiaries (Mixtures of the Primaries and Secondaries).

        This worked really well and was very logical and easy and the mixtures were all clean. The Blues were challenging because they quickly became dark, so I had to add a little white to see what color I was looking at.

        Complements
        With this color chart, I can see what the complements are that will dull a color. The chart also tells me how to mix the complements.

          [*]Primary Cyan and Red
          [*]Primary Yellow and Blue
          [*]Primary Magenta and Green
          [*]Tertiary Orange and Tertiary Blue
          [*]Tertiary Violet and Tertiary Yellow-Green
          [*]Tertiary Red-Violet and Tertiary Green-Blue

        Best Mixtures
        To me, the hues on this color wheel aren’t too exciting because they are too bright. I could never use them “as is.” However, when I mixed them with a little of their complementary color, I got some really beautiful—and useful—mixtures.

        On the left is the chart where I was playing around with Quinacridone Magenta and either Hansa Yellow Opaque or Bismuth Vanadate Yellow. You can see that when I lightened the mixtures with white I got some colors that were good for flesh tones.

        On the right (under the blues at the top) are mixtures of hues on the color wheel with a little of their complement added. The actual mixtures are softer and more natural looking than the photograph.

          [*]Tertiary Orange and Tertiary Blue
          [*]Red and Primary Cyan
          [*]Green and Primary Magenta

        A little to the left are:

          [*]Primary Yellow and Blue
          [*]Blue and Primary Yellow
          [*]Primary Magenta and Green

        All these colors looked good together. The rag I wiped my brush on started to look like an abstract painting! This was a very interesting experiment—and fun! So yes, now I am convinced that CMY are the true primary colors.

        #1190744
        Anonymous

            nice work, Golden has done this before with their colors and here is the chart in text form:

            Notice that what they designate as a middle blue is not a complement of primary yellow. Middle blue is on the cyan side of ultramarine and both of those blues yeild a green when mixed with primary yellow.
            So what some designate as a primary blue is actually a violet biased blue, which is the mixing complement of yellow. Middle blue is what I believe most people understand to be an unbiased “primary” blue. Nomenclature should not vary, confusion results if people are talking about two different blues.
            Middle blue is opposite, and is the mixing complement of orange, even in this chart.
            Likewise, I view their primary red as orange biased. Primary Yellow looks like a middle yellow to me.
            BTW, I agree that CYM are the primary subtractive mixing colors.

            #1190753
            davidbriggs
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                Well done, Tiasa. Note especially that you don’t for example need one yellow with a magenta “bias” and another with a cyan “bias”. To repeat what I said on the other thread, the apparent value of the split-primary system is that it evades the problem that a psychologically pure yellow, red and blue palette can’t actually mix a full range of hues. If people were taught from the start that the optimal colourant-mixing primaries are yellow, magenta and cyan, and confirmed that they can mix a full range of hues at moderate chroma from just three such paints, they would have no reason to engage with the Wilcox mumbo-jumbo in the first place.

                They would also be saved from the trouble of having to rediscover something that’s been well known for over a century!

                I agree with sidbledsoe that calling the mixing complement of yellow your “blue” is confusing: perhaps “blue-violet” would do.

                Colour Online (hundreds of links on colour): https://sites.google.com/site/djcbriggs/colour-online
                The Dimensions of Colour: www.huevaluechroma.com
                Colour Society of Australia: www.coloursociety.org.au

                #1190749
                Gigalot
                Default

                    Psychologically CMY is able to make a dent in the human stagnation and scholasticism. And people can have perfect Rose color, high chroma sky blue and very effective green.
                    No needs anymore to think how to refine the dirty mixture of ultramarine and cadmium :lol:

                    Sid, you can mix near perfect violet with RYB scheme using modern “Red” pigments, which have a good reflectance in blue color range. PR209 or PR170 for example. Some people use color scheme they called RYB which is actually CMY. For example PR209, PY74, PB15.1. Is it RYB? I think it is CMY anyway.

                    The only Cadmium is non-magenta Red, which do not have reflectance in blue. Many people, reading many books, thousand times, with great tenacity tried to mix violet from it! :lol: but I really love brown color it can give in mixture with cobalt blue deep. As I remember, Einion was first, who gave me an advice to mix this Cad/Cobalt brown.

                    #1190745
                    Anonymous

                        Yes I agree Alex, the wide range of nomenclature variation is difficult to follow. When you put your cad red next to your P209 you can see how orange the cad really is. Brown is “usually” typically, a low chroma orange, if you lower the chroma and value of your orange/red cad with a near mixing complementary blue, then you get a rich and colorful brown, possibly leaning even violet, like a caput mortuum, depending upon the shades and brands.

                        BTW, I agree that CYM are the primary subtractive mixing colors.

                        I must again make it very clear that I have never claimed in any thread that red, yellow, and blue are the best mixing primaries that mix any color IRL. What I have said is that these theoretical, unbiased colors of red, yellow, and blue simply make for logical and convenient “compass” points of reference with which to begin my thinking about, and then to navigate from, in determining the proper directions when I am color mixing. It is like traveling from any point A to point B by the shortest direct route. Thinking in these terms reduces the variables, it eliminates the biases that all real world pigments have. I learn where each and every color I use resides, in relation to red, yellow, and blue, even my cyan and magenta. I mentally start from a single discreet color and not from a mixture of colors. Now I know what my cad red or my pr209 or violet, cyan or whatever will do. I know that the idea that red, yellow, and blue are the primary colors is wrong. What I have said is that I have been told that my complements are all wrong and the wheel that works in a symmetrical arrangement is wrong, yet they both serve me very well indeed..

                        the mixing complement of yellow your “blue” is confusing: perhaps “blue-violet” would do.

                        Golden does it too, they should definitely plot their ultramarine violet paint on this chart, but then it would be right next to what they designate as primary blue and they would have some ‘splainin to do:D !

                        #1190741
                        Tiasa
                        Default

                            I agree with [B]sidbledsoe[/B] that calling the mixing complement of yellow your “blue” is confusing: perhaps “blue-violet” would do.

                            Good point. The “blue” on the handpainted chart is visibly more violet. That doesn’t really come through on-screen. I called it blue to emphasize the point that RGB can be mixed from the CMY primaries.

                            In very general terms, the color opposite yellow on my wheel does in fact look “blue.” So does the blue to the right of it which I think is more ultramarine blue, which makes sense because it is the complement of the orange.

                            The color Golden puts across from Primary Yellow is a mixture of 2 parts Quinacridone Magenta and 1 part of Thalo Blue (GS) and that is how I mixed the one on the color wheel.

                            The Reds on the hand-painted chart are not quite as orange-biased as they appear on screen. It is easier to see the differences between all the reds on the hand-painted chart. I was relieved to see that Magenta and Yellow didn’t result in a bunch of bluish reds since I like the yellow reds better. You can mix them however you want them with these two colors.

                            The yellow on-screen looks much warmer than the hand-painted yellow. I think all of the yellows used in CMY are on the cool side.

                            I got these mixtures with just 3 tubes of paint! When I looked at the pigment composition of my other Golden paints, I realized I had spent a lot of money I didn’t need to spend. Doing this with 3 tubes of paint made it clear that a set of double primaries isn’t necessary when you begin with CMY.

                            One thing I did notice was the RGB colors are very necessary to dull down the primary CMY. That means they should probably be pre-mixed before a painting session so they are available.

                            #1190739
                            WFMartin
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                                One thing I did notice was the RGB colors are very necessary to dull down the primary CMY. That means they should probably be pre-mixed before a painting session so they are available.

                                That is because each primary color (CMY), has, as its complementary color, one secondary color of Red, Green, or Blue (call it “violet” or “purple” if you wish). Makes perfect, scientific, logical sense.:thumbsup:

                                That which you said is surely true. (Well, tubed RGB colors are truly not actually “necessary”, simply because, as you have stated, they can each be mixed from pairs of the primary colors.) But, they surely ARE nice to include on one’s palette, for practical work, because of convenience, and efficiency.

                                Anyone interested in learning more about the attributes of the true, scientific, primary colors, and how their unique characteristics can be used to understand the mixing of “target colors”, you are welcome to Private Message me for an article I have written regarding this topic. I don’t prefer to argue the science of color behavior on the open forum with those who have other ideas. I have found arguing is good, but only to a point.:D After that, it becomes boring to those who choose not to believe that which I have to offer.

                                wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                #1190742
                                Tiasa
                                Default

                                    Bill, I am busy looking for good tube RGB colors in acrylic, but one of my concerns is that they won’t work as well as the mixed ones from CMY.

                                    It sounds like you have worked with tube RGB colors to dull down CMY and been happy with the results. Did you just test various tube colors to see if they were good complements to the CMY colors?

                                    #1190740
                                    WFMartin
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                                        Bill, I am busy looking for good tube RGB colors in acrylic, but one of my concerns is that they won’t work as well as the mixed ones from CMY.

                                        It sounds like you have worked with tube RGB colors to dull down CMY and been happy with the results. Did you just test various tube colors to see if they were good complements to the CMY colors?

                                        In my opinion the possibilities of actually finding specific, tubed colors that are true complements to the primary colors is rather remote…..most must be mixed, but NOT all. In my experience, when two colors are plotted opposite each other on a color wheel, by scientific, color analysis (rather than by intuition, or by believing the “names” printed on the labels), those two color paints will, indeed, mix to produce a neutral, in actual practice.

                                        Please PM me. I easily weary of the battle, lately, and I’m now much too old to enjoy it, any more.:D

                                        wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                        https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                        #1190746
                                        Anonymous

                                            I am busy looking for good tube RGB colors in acrylic

                                            for Golden acrylics, they are designated in the chart I posted, the complement of their cyan #4 is vat orange #6, for their magenta #3 it is perm green lite #10. Why they left out the complement of yellow makes no sense because the mixing complements is the very title of this chart from Golden they generated for their colors, hence I made the comment earlier that they blatantly left out ultramarine violet, which is a very near complement to primary yellow and no doubt the closest tube paint you could find. Stephen Quiller says ultramarine violet and yellow are true complements and I have found this to be true with my oils, however shades may always vary and require some tweaking.

                                            #1190750
                                            Gigalot
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                                                I can recommend you to add Vat Orange PO43 color to your palette. It can give you very high chroma orange can’t be mixed using magenta and yellow. Also PO43+PR122 makes a bright Red with yellow hue. PO43+PY74 gives a bright reddish yellow. Green and violet colors mixed with CMY are good enough for me.

                                                Personaly, I use yellow ochre to make a dull yellow shades and black to dull magenta and cyan.

                                                #1190743
                                                Tiasa
                                                Default

                                                    Gigalot,

                                                    I am going to give these mixtures a try to get the bright reds and oranges that I like. I also like the greens and violets you get from CMY and yellow ochre sounds like a good addition to the palette.

                                                    Thanks.

                                                    #1190751
                                                    Gigalot
                                                    Default

                                                        Happy painting to all!

                                                        #1190738
                                                        Patrick1
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                                                            If you’re looking for good mixing complements to CMY, this chart shows that most colors (other than middle and lemon yellows) have at least one good mixing complement that will mix black or neutral grey:

                                                            http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/IMG/mixmatch.gif

                                                            #1190747
                                                            Anonymous

                                                                Wow, that chart stops with ultramarine violet(blue shade) as the last entry for yellow (cad yellow deep is fairly orange biased) complements, then ultramarine violet(red shade) jumps past primary yellows and complements PG17 which is Viridian!
                                                                Then dioxazine violet is a complement of sap green, this leaves quite a gap for primary yellow complements, out of the tube that is. I guess you need to mix an ultramarine violet red shade with a blue shade to use it to complement a primary yellow.
                                                                Note that this chart from handprint does not exactly agree with the Golden chart wheel in several cases.

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