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Old 02-02-2013, 03:48 PM
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evan3585 evan3585 is offline
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Drying time for thin layers?

Following Alexei Antonov Flemish method I am trying to figure out if I really need to wait a month for each layer to dry. I know underlayer doesnt take long sense I only use turp for that but Im wondering about the dead layer. I paint pretty thin even more so than Alexei's dead layers sometimes.He wipes each layer down with linseed before starting next layer so maybe that is why he waits a months for the layer to dry.I tried that with a underlayer after waiting a few months and when i wiped with linseed oil it took a lot of the underpaint off. Could be because I use canvas panels and texture of it was the cause or because Im using cheap boiled linseed oil. I plan to get some liquin soon. Wondering what your experience with this method is and how long you wait for a layer to dry using no special mediums like liquin/alkyd with very thin layers?
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:11 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

I paint in this method, and surely do not wait a month for each layer to dry.

I do not use liquin or any alkyd, but more traditional materials, mainly oil of spike, OMS, stand oil, etc.

My dead layer dries quick on the dark end (ivory black/burnt umber) and slower on the light end (same darks mixed with 1/2 lead white, 1/2 titanium white). Basically the dark tones are pretty dry overnight, very dry in another day, and the lightest lights are good and dry in 3 days, max.

Since using stand oil in the medium, my layers dry very hard and enamel-like. I always rub oil in before painting over a dry part; very little if any old paint comes off when wiping it off, and I attribute that also to the stand oil.

If beading up occurs when oiling out, I often take a brush and lightly brush OMS over the area, give it a few minutes, then gently wipe it off with a paper towel. If color doesn't come off here, it's not going to when I oil out the section.

I also find it important (and necessary) to 'jump around' my painting to give fresh sections time to dry, so that when it's time to join 2 painted areas I'm assured no paint will come off in my preparatory actions.

A heavier canvas texture could promote paint wiping off more easily from the higher sections of the canvas, I've seen that myself in my earlier efforts. I currently have 1 'perfectly' set up painting, where everything seemed to go well (it's done with the dead layer now, waiting for color).

For this painting, it was done on canvas glued to a MDF board, 2 layers of gesso to fill in some of the weave, sanded lightly. Subject drawn out in pencil (lightly) then erased mostly, then inked in with a micron pen.

Imprimatura paint applied, pure lead white tinted to a light olive color (much like Alexei, but lighter), thinned to a ketchup-like consistency with turps and a little oil (the white was super-stiff at first). Applied evenly, then evened out as much as possible with a dry mop blending brush. This gave me the tone I wanted but I could still see the inked drawing perfectly underneath.

The umber layer (only 1) went on with a thinned version of my medium, and each section was dry the next day (I do live in So. California, so it's warm and dry here almonst always). Once again, I reiterate that the addition of stand oil to my medium made this layer seem harder and much less prone to wiping off than ever before.

I painted an intermediate step before my dead layer, a 'backbone'-type step where I just added the lightest 2 steps (1-2 out of 10) in titanium W. and titanium/sm. amount of burnt umber. So at this point I have an olive imprimatura at about a value step 3 out of 10, an umber layer of values 4-10, and a 'light' layer of values 1-2.

The dead layer was applied much like Alexei recommends, the darks very thin and the lights thicker. I did this more successfully than ever before, carefully matching the dead layer tones to the umber tones achieving a nice optical mix of gray over brown, and the lighter tones were helped by my previous small 'backbone' layer.

As I said this has been my most successful result so far, at least in terms of paint application and routine.

I used to have situations where colors would rub off when prepping areas to paint, but I seem to have discovered some magic combo of the right support, prepared well, and the right medium, and maybe the right timing in between everything.

Good luck!
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:15 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Quote:
He wipes each layer down with linseed before starting next layer so maybe that is why he waits a months for the layer to dry.I tried that with a underlayer after waiting a few months and when i wiped with linseed oil it took a lot of the underpaint off. Could be because I use canvas panels and texture of it was the cause or because Im using cheap boiled linseed oil.

I think it has more to do with the acrylic gesso and the initial bonding of the paint more then anything else. I have noticed that usually when you wipe a dried area and the paint below is removed down to the gesso, that future layers of paint are hard to reapply to that area. I have been planning on starting a thread of this subject. It is almost as if the gesso is sucking out the oil from the paint and creating a very weak bond. I wonder if other's have noticed this?
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:51 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evan3585
I know underlayer doesnt take long sense I only use turp for that but Im wondering about the dead layer. I paint pretty thin even more so than Alexei's dead layers sometimes. He wipes each layer down with linseed before starting next layer so maybe that is why he waits a months for the layer to dry. I tried that with a underlayer after waiting a few months and when i wiped with linseed oil it took a lot of the underpaint off.
It sounds like your paint is underbound. You shouldn't be able to wipe the paint off, even with solvent.
This is what happens it you add too much solvent to your paint. It washes the binder from around the pigment particles so that in effect, you have dry pigment sitting on your canvas.
Use as little solvent as possible in your underlayer.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:27 AM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Wow this is great info thanks.
Good to hear about drying time and your whole method on Alexei Antonov's method Alan. I now feel safer on dry time unless linseed dries differnt than stand oil?
I use a lot of mineral spirits for my under painting. Almost like ink. Ill use a lot less from now on.
"If beading up occurs when oiling out" I still havnt wrapped my head around what this means. I dont know what beading is or oiling out is. Even in Alexei videos it didnt make much sense to me. Maybe Im missing something.If someone could explain this with maybe images from a site or something that would be great.I tried to look of the definition of beading and still dont exactly know.Oiling out I have no idea. I do notice some areas of a painting will be more glossy than other parts and some are matte. I dont that like too much. Maybe that is why I need to oil it down? Boiled linseed is dark and maybe not as pure so maybe grainy and that is another factor of why it could take paint off? I need to get some gesso so I can fill the weave of my primed canvas because I am not liking the texture being there for this thin of painting.
So it seems texture weave from canvas, Too much solvent and guessing cus Im using boiled linseed oil could all be a factor.

Last edited by evan3585 : 02-03-2013 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:49 AM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Evan,
'Oiling out' is simply applying a small amount of linseed oil to the area of the painting you plan on working on, and then rubbing it off, leaving a thin 'sheen' of oil on which to paint over. It makes paint application easier, blending much easier, and aids in bonding old paint to new. Alexei literally pours oil on his painting, wipes it off, then paints. I simply apply it to my fingertip, rub it in the painting's surface, then wipe off.

'Beading' is when paint (or oil) does not 'stick' to old paint. Think of a freshly waxed car: when you spray it in the car wash, water 'beads' off of it. On a dry, usually shiny surface, oil, medium or paint may 'bead' off of the dry paint layer. This happens to me often when I oil out. Solutions include rub the surface of the painting with an onion (real old school), just keep rubbing the oil in until it stops beading (will work, but could take off paint or get your finger tired), sanding the surface lightly (not for me, too likely to take paint off) or, my solution: lightly brush OMS on the surface, wait 5 min., then dab or lightly wipe it off, THEN oil out the area; the oil won't bead anymore.

Don't worry about gloss/matte areas in your painting; worry about the important things, painting right, blending right, covering correctly, etc.

All that glossy/matte stuff will be corrected when you varnish. Other people oil out to correct that, but I don't like adding any oil unless I'm painting right over it.

I don't know about boiled linseed oil, but to be save spend $10 and get some artist-grade stuff. Cut down on the solvent usage too, I really only use it to 'cut' my stand oil/linseed oil somewhat; To start off with, try a 50/50 OMS/linseed ratio, this will do you well.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:12 AM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Seven layers and seven weeks to dry each layer. It is Flemish still life school recommendation. Cheaper method can cause cracks and can`t give unique sheen.

Last edited by Gigalot : 02-03-2013 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:31 AM
Biblioscape Biblioscape is offline
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
Seven layers and seven weeks to dry each layer. It is Flemish still life school recommendation. Cheaper method can cause cracks and can`t give unique sheen.

It would take forever to finish a painting if you did this If you paint thinly and don't add a lot of oil, it should be dry enough for another layer in a week, unless you use a color that dries extra slowly, like thick titanium white or cobalt blue. If I was concerned about drying layers, I'd use alkyds.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:50 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

biblio, I agree, alkyds all the way if painting that many layers,
but cobalt blues do dry fast, my Shiva cobalt dries very nicely in a day or so.
Evan, go to advanced search in this forum, type in "beading" and a bunch of previous threads will come up. Then type in "oiling out" and a bunch of those will come up.
Just varnishing an oil painting that already has an even sheen, will result in a similar even sheen when varnished. However, if you have an oil painting that has vastly differing sheens, varnishing will not correct this and you may very well still get an uneven result. Varnish will sink into the absorbent areas and float on top of the glossy areas. So some areas wind up with little or no coating of varnish, whereas other areas wind up with a much thicker coating of varnish. I can't imagine any circumstance where it would be desirable for varnish to sink down into the oil paint, you want it all to float on the top for future removal also.
Oiling out a final painting fixes this flaw very nicely.
I believe Alex is mainly talking about oiling out between layers, this is also called applying a couch. That is just prelubricating the surface with some medium of choice. This type of oiling out reduces beading, promotes adhesion, and lubricates dry surfaces for ease of overpainting paint flow.

Last edited by sidbledsoe : 02-03-2013 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:12 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Quote:
What is OMS?
OMS is odorless mineral spirits. Sansodor, Gamsol, Turpenoid are examples of mineral spirits with very low odor. Normal white spirits or mineral spirits does have quite a bit of odor.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:12 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

What is OMS?
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:05 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

^ That's a neat trick ... answering a question before it's asked!
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:32 PM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Happens all the time these days, Ron.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:40 AM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

sidbledsoe are u a time traveler?
Thanks for the advice. Makes a lot more sense now. I havnt noticed any beading in the few Flemish paintings Ive done. Ill have to take a closer look. Unless the uneven gloss is a sign of beading. I still have never varnished. I know there is lots of info about that on here. Ive heard to wait at least 6 months to varnish and I have I think 1 painting right now I could varnish if that is true. Takes me forever to finish one layer at the rate I was going. Waiting at least a month for each layer but now I know I dont need to. Also Im going to get some liquin when I have the money I think and only use it on paintings I dont want to take a break from.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:19 AM
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Re: Drying time for thin layers?

Guys, one of the best things I've found in a long time is a Krylon quick drying spray for oil paints! It accelerates the oxidation by 2-3x.
http://www.krylon.com/products/quick...oil_paintings/
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