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  #16   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-28-2012, 09:34 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Susan,
I do have an old tube of WN Quin Gold that is PO 49 as well as a tube of DS Quin Gold Deep that is PO 49. I just checked the labels on both tubes.

I did buy them a year or so ago when I first heard that the PO 49 pigment was being phased out and would no longer be available one day soon in our watercolor paints.

Sounds as if both DS and WN have changed their formulations of Quin Gold since I bought my tubes.

Sylvia
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:52 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Sylvia, Daniel Smith is still using PO49 for their Quin Gold... it's beautifully transparent with a very wide value range...

The Quinacridone Gold deep is a mixture of PO48 and PY150... I haven't tried this hue... when D. Smith introduced it in one of their triads, it was a single pigment colour which (for some reason) they discontinued in favour of this mixture.
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:13 PM
sashntash sashntash is offline
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintDoodles
So does this mean that a combination of pigments that are transparent = transparent when mixed together and not mud?

I'll let other more experienced watercolorists chime in here.... as to the "mud" issue....

But, I do believe that if you mix 2 or 3 truly transparent colors that you will still have a transparent mix.

I also believe... but I'd like to have others chime in..... that it is not transparent vs. opaque that is the determining factor in creating mud, but rather... what colors you mix together that create mud.

Although.... I also think that it is "easier" to get mud with opaque colors.....

Thoughts anyone ???? everyone?????
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:23 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

I'd love some clarification about this, too, because I thought the rule or guideline was that if you mixed more than two colors together you got mud.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharM
Sylvia, Daniel Smith is still using PO49 for their Quin Gold... it's beautifully transparent with a very wide value range...

The Quinacridone Gold deep is a mixture of PO48 and PY150... I haven't tried this hue... when D. Smith introduced it in one of their triads, it was a single pigment colour which (for some reason) they discontinued in favour of this mixture.

Good thing my DS tube that is the single pigment version is still pretty full as well as the WN one being half full, so I have Quin Gold, PO49, in stock for a LONG time before I have to replace it.

Sylvia
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:48 PM
M.L. Schaefer M.L. Schaefer is offline
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

My WetCanvas page just hiccuped and I lost my reply! So, I'll try again.

Susan and PaintDoodles, hello! To avoid mud, you must know the temperature of color bias of your paints. For instance, a warm red with be a red with yellow undertones, making it more "orangey" looking (i.e., Vermillion). A cool red will be a red with more blue in it (i.e., Alizarin Crimson, Permanent Rose). A "neutral" red would be a red without as much color bias (i.e., PR254 -Lukas Red). Make a color chart with your reds next to each other, pretty soon your eye will be able to discern which color is warm and which is cool.

If you take a cool color and mix it with a warm color, you will get a toned down color, sometimes beautiful, sometimes NOT! Mix a third color in it, without knowing what that color will do, could very well create mud, or create a color you like. You are always less likely to create mud if you paper mix (rather than palette mix), which will give you a wonderful variety of the colors. Layering (or glazing) your colors will help you prevent mud, although it will not guarantee a wonderful result until you try what your colors will do when glazed over one another or paper mixed with each other.

The main thing is, practice! Experiment! and Practice some more!

Much Happy Painting!

Kiwi

As an add on: Virgil is totally right (he's one of our true experts - me, not so much ). I was thinking that you should search the Learning Zone about painting with transparent paint, as Doug's November challenge is to paint with transparent colors!

Last edited by M.L. Schaefer : 10-30-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:49 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Three transparents, carefully chosen and mixed, may be transparent hues. Four or more however, risks having transparent mud! Not that there's anything wrong with mud, mind you...

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Old 10-31-2012, 05:58 AM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Check out this interesting thread from The Watercolor Handbook called Extreme Darks Without Mud.

The discussion concerning how to avoid making mud is very interesting and informative.

Sylvia
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:29 AM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Virgil, I couldn't agree more! For some reason, we spend inordinate amounts of time and frustration in trying to prevent mixing *mud*...

The fact of the matter is that neutrals (sounds so much better than mud, eh?) make our local colour look more vibrant. The ability to predict when we'll mix vibrant colour vs. mousey colour means that we have to learn a little colour theory... Kiwi's post concerning colour bias is right on!

I love colour as much as the next person and I love to buy all those gorgeous convenience colours... nothing wrong with that... except... we really need to be aware of their content... Many convenience colours are homogeneous mixtures of two or more pigments. As stand alone colours they're often gorgeous. The potential for dull, uninteresting mixes increases with the addition of another colour...

I often cite the example of Hooker's Green... every manufacturer uses a different combination of blues and yellows to create this colour name. One manufacturer uses no less than FOUR pigments in their mixture... I shudder to think how mixing that Hooker's with anything will turn out.

Lastly, any time you glaze yellow over anything, it will look dull and muddy!
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:38 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Thank you, everyone. I can see I have my homework cut out for me to learn about "mud"
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:02 AM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAj17...=results_video

Cheap Joes view on mud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYgYXr30F0E

He shows colors used, mixing on the palette, and using a couple layers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ4wW...ture=endscreen

In part two he adjusts the dark. You can get it too dark.

I was going to show some of the dark variegated backgrounds in a painting or two of mine but my camera battery is dead. On charge now.

Last edited by hblenkle : 11-01-2012 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:31 AM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Char makes a good point: "neutralized" color sounds (and is) much better terminology than "mud". Using neutralized color can be a very effective approach for quiet and contemplative paintings (if that's one's intent). Here's two paintings exploring neutralized color:




:
As Char has pointed out in previous posts, painter Jeanne Dobie has literally written the book on painting striking works using neutralized color.

There's an interesting approach to contrast that uses both saturated hues and neutralized hues: Intensity Contrast. Intensity contrast is created by using a limited amount of saturated, intense hues juxtaposed with larger amounts of neutralized hues. If the neutralized hues have a complementary color bias then the effect becomes even greater. This approach is sometimes called Simultaneous Contrast. Here's an example:



So the point is that neutralized hues are really quite useful and don't have to be "muddy" at all. Second, combining neutralized hues with saturated/intense passages can be used to create very striking works. Just some thoughts.

Apologies if this hijacks the thread!

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

According to Handprint the Quinacridone Gold PO49 was dropped by the pigment manufacturers several years ago, mainly due to lack of demand from the automotive industry. Sadly PO48 was also discontinued (Handprint again) so there is a large question mark over that one also- one of my favourite pigments!

Daniel Smith appear to be the only source of the true PO49 as they (apparently) bought up a large amount. How long will this last ???

Maimeri still put PO49 (actually it's mispelt as PV49 Quinacridone Gold) on their Golden Lake but they have changed the pigment to PY43. How do I know this? I contacted Maimeri and received no reply but Bruce McEvoy of Handprint has more clout than me (in an e-mail) and they told him they had replaced PO49 with PY43 `a similar pigment'.

I suspect any others who are listing PO49 may be doing the same. I have the Daniel Smith version and some pans of the original Winsor & Newton Quinacridone Gold. The new version should be called a `hue'. Did you know that Winsor & Newton are now owned by Wilhelm Becker a German paint company? Previous owners were Colart, a Swedish educational company. Are there other paints where the actual ingredients don't match what is says on the tin (tube )? I suspect there must be - the manufacturers aren't going to trash all the literature and print everything new every five minutes.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can clarify some of these points.


Peter
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:51 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

Any experience with PY43, the similar pigment? Maybe I should get another tube before anymore changes.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:05 PM
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Re: Other Quinacridone Gold v Daniel Smith's

PaintDoodles, perhaps you need to define what you mean by "mud"!

Obvioiusly Windor & Newton can successfully mix three pigments with a commercial paint mixture. Same result applies for Hookers and Sap Green, among other paints (although one could debate the degree of success of those particular paints, IMO, but they have their advocates).

But how much experimentation did it take W&N to produce this particular successful mixture?

Mixing on one's palette or on one's paper may be a somewhat different challenge, since our time, experience and budget may not be that of W&N!

Carefully chosen, however, three paints of any similar kind (transparent, opaque, staining or granulating) will not necessarily make a dull, flat, colorless (muddy) passage. Depending on the hues, however, the final color may be neutralized to some lesser or greater degree. I'd add a caveat about mixing three opaque pigments, since opaques are in a class by themselves!

A successful approach to mixing three pigments is often to first mix the two lightest valued paints, and thereafter add only a very small amount of the darkest valued paint, increasing further if needed for the desired effect. Adding the third paint is a bit like adding seasoning to a cooking recipe--"add to taste"!

The best and most reliable advice about paint mixing may be to use two paints if the desired effect can be achieved.

That said, mixing four (or more) paints greatly increases the risk of both neutralized hues and a flat, colorless (muddy), unattractive appearance. This is one of the reasons some painters advocate the use of only single-pigment paints. I don't subscribe to that approach as critical, but it does help simplify paint mixing for those in the early stages of painting.

Using multiple paints, with more than one pigment ingredient in some or all of the paints, requires more experience for both color and value of paints, not to mention their primary paint characteristics (transparent, opaque, staining and granulating). It's experience that is gained through trial and error experience, and can greatly increase the painterly effects far beyond the use of only single-pigment transparent paints.

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