First images from Mars

[shadwell]

what happens to all your technology if tomorow we can't produce enough electricity ???

[ianuk]

I would like to ask a question here. How many that have written in this thread would like to spend the rest of their lives on a barren planet with no breathable gasses that can sustain human life, and without the beauty of earth. If the answer is that no one here would care to live like that and I certainly wouldn't, either for myself or my descendents. what's the point of space exploration?

Or, would you like to maintain life at whatever cost, regardless of the quality of that life?

[vmrs]

The olympic's produce a return, most of the money comes from sponsors and the buzz gets the kids outside trying to live a healthy lifestyle instead of sitting in front of technology and becoming obese which then costs the kids their health. Within the next weeks more kids will be riding bikes in the fresh air (what little we humans haven't polluted that is) kids will join athletics clubs and they'll have hope of a better future and dreams of what they can become.

Satellites too produce a return which I have no problem with and I have no problem with space exploration. It may lead some of the brightest children to become great scientists. However, other than that, it will merely produce pretty pictures. Man will never live in space, they can't even live on their own planet without destroying it. rightly or wrongly -That is simply my view.

NASA does produces returns, it receives about $8 back for every $1 spent with it's patents and technologies. The money goes directly into the US Treasury.
If you know someone with heart defibrillator/ or miniature pump then you can thank NASA for saving their life.
Or if you've had bone density test, you can thank NASA.
If you have drank reclaimed water and in drought hit areas and countries that has been a lifesaver, then you can thank NASA.
If you know of contaminated land that has been cleaned with remediation technologies then you can thank NASA.
We know of global weather and pollution changes because of NASA.
Thousands of lives are saved from hurricanes and other weather dangers because of NASA.
Robotic bomb disposal units that can clear fields of mines are a result of NASA's experiments saving thousands of lives.
If you use anything with a circuit board including your computer, your garage door opener and such then you can thank NASA.
And the same goes for miniature electronics, GPS systems and etc. etc. etc....
NASA and it's scientists who come from all over the world and make great strides in their fields even after they have left NASA have done much for peace, health and economics and it cost the American taxpayers pennies a day for which we get back so much more.
Space exploration has inspired thousands upon thousands of people to become scientists, to learn more, to have goals, to explore and reach higher and to wonder and to dream. And that is priceless.

We may never ever live on Mars and no I wouldn't want to but I am thoroughly enjoying my well spent pennies even if it doesn't result in anything other then "pretty pictures". After all many people including Van Gogh, Renoir, Rembrandt etc etc have done nothing more then produce "pretty pictures". And there's nothing wrong with that in my book.

[shadwell]

actualy there are more places on earth that invent things , such as the first computer ( invented in england ) without such original founding technology nasa would have been screwed and also ww2 germany who's rocket scientists founded nasa

the list can go on but all the things you mention were discovered on E.A.R.T.H with no involvement from space therefore they would have been invented anyway

[ianuk]

I too don't know where anyone comes up with the technology that NASA claim to have discovered or people seem to credit them with.

[brianvds]

look is it impossible to get it through to you !! space travel is an uninportant play thing for when you have the resources it may only be just over 1/2 a % of the budget but while there are ecconomical problems it is an extravagant luxury

Well, this could be. I guess it depends on what we consider to be luxuries. There is certainly a libertarian argument to be made that tax money should not fund pure research. Or perhaps anything at all. Should any tax money be spent on ANY pure research, or is it specifically space travel that bothers you? How about tax money spent on maintaining art museums (after all, all they offer us are pretty pictures), or to subsidize symphony orchestras? What about the funding for universities? Should we only publicly fund the training of doctors and engineers, but not philosophers or archaeologists or experts on literature?

Part of the libertarian argument is of course precisely that once the state starts to fund anything at all, there is no end to it and it becomes a bottomless well. But given that the state does fund all kinds of things, it is not clear to me why specifically space exploration bothers you so much. Or perhaps there are all manner of other things that you also consider a waste of money? Like "defense," perhaps?

the problem with space travel is very little is said about the field of junk we have orbiting the earth you'd think with such good tech they'd be able to work out how to control the vast polution they are leaving around thier own planet

All that space junk poses a threat only to spacecraft, and seeing as you oppose space exploration, you should really be glad about the junk.

is it any wonder resources and climate are in danger with bozo's screwing with it like this

What does space exploration have to do with climate change (apart from the fact that it is largely thanks to space exploration that we know anything about it at all)?

I would like to ask a question here. How many that have written in this thread would like to spend the rest of their lives on a barren planet with no breathable gasses that can sustain human life, and without the beauty of earth. If the answer is that no one here would care to live like that and I certainly wouldn't, either for myself or my descendents. what's the point of space exploration?

As I have said before, the point of space exploration is to better understand the universe we live in.

Here's a question: would you like to spend your life on the bottom of the ocean, in perpetual darkness? If not, then what is the point of sending submersible probes to the depths of the ocean?

The thing is, one cannot really chop science up into neat little "useful" and "useless" categories. It can be very difficult to work out which bit of scientific research may eventually have huge payoffs. If we insist on doing only such science as seems to have immediately useful applications, we are impoverishing science to the point where before long, there will be no more new applications.

Newton wondered what kept the moon in its orbit. Why did he bother, seeing as the moon is a dead rock of no use to us? Well, he was just curious. Curious enough to even invent a new branch of mathematics to help him answer his questions. One can imagine his contemporaries shaking their heads at this colossal waste of time and a good brain.

But modern engineering is inconceivable without Newtonian gravity and the calculus he invented. Its applications were not foreseen at the time. The history of mathematics, incidentally, is replete with examples of seemingly playful and utterly useless ideas that later turn out crucial to some or other practical application. Imaginary numbers come to mind. But hey, perhaps we should stop funding mathematicians indulging their hobby as well.

Anyway, we're going round in circles. You'll have to give us more detail about what kind of government programs you think should be funded, and which can be dropped.

[brianvds]

Originally Posted by shadwell

what happens to all your technology if tomorow we can't produce enough electricity ???

What makes you think we are in any imminent danger of not being able to produce electricity? It is one of the least of our problems.

[StephenC]

Originally Posted by shadwell

actualy there are more places on earth that invent things , such as the first computer ( invented in england ) without such original founding technology nasa would have been screwed and also ww2 germany who's rocket scientists founded nasa

the list can go on but all the things you mention were discovered on E.A.R.T.H with no involvement from space therefore they would have been invented anyway

This is so nonsensical it must be a joke. You're saying that because we invent things on Earth we should not explore the universe? And there are numerous ways, buddy, that England itself would have been screwed were it not for considerable help from the USA circa 1940-45.

From where, Shadwell, did you get the false idea that Germans founded NASA? Americans founded it without any involvement whatever from German rocket scientists. Robert Goddard's invention of the first liquid-fueled rocket as well as the guidance systems for controlled rocket flight were all that was needed to start the first aeronautics agency in the US which later became NASA. The Germans were recruited to add their expertise but they in no way founded anything here whatsoever.

If you don't know what you're talking about, there is much to profit in silence.

[shadwell]

Originally Posted by StephenC

And there are numerous ways, buddy, that England itself would have been screwed were it not for considerable help from the USA circa 1940-45. .... and don't we know it , it is just about a favourite american line ...... but to be honest we would have been better off if germany won ... we only finnished paying the debt back 5 yrs ago !! wich nearly bankrupted us many times ...... also don't forget who's helping you with vietnam no2 and it would be intresting to know if you are paying us towards your war with no end !!

From where, Shadwell, did you get the false idea that Germans founded NASA? Americans founded it without any involvement whatever from German rocket scientists. Robert Goddard's invention of the first liquid-fueled rocket as well as the guidance systems for controlled rocket flight were all that was needed to start the first aeronautics agency in the US which later became NASA. The Germans were recruited to add their expertise but they in no way founded anything here whatsoever. utter twaddle von braun was well ahead of anything you were doing if he wasn't america would have delivered the first nukes by rocket germany had a nuclear programe planned for the v2 but it was stopped by the telemark raid von braun designed your first nuclear missile "redstone " and was chief architecht for the saturn v founded may have been a strong word but without him the first moonwalk would probably have been 1985

and for the reccord we came to help instantly in your war without it directly affecting us ........ you take your time to say the least until it effects you or more important your bank ballance!!

[brianvds]

Originally Posted by StephenC

From where, Shadwell, did you get the false idea that Germans founded NASA? Americans founded it without any involvement whatever from German rocket scientists. Robert Goddard's invention of the first liquid-fueled rocket as well as the guidance systems for controlled rocket flight were all that was needed to start the first aeronautics agency in the US which later became NASA. The Germans were recruited to add their expertise but they in no way founded anything here whatsoever.

Well, German engineers made a huge contribution, but it has to be said that the reason why they did so was partially because in Germany, they received a lot of support and funding, whereas Goddard had to battle it out virtually on his own, in the face of much Luddite skepticism... :-)

America just keeps on achieving great things, in spite of the majority of Americans. :-)

[ianuk]

Originally Posted by StephenC

Space exploration will continue and the skeptics and naysayers will continue to broadcast their ignorance.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread more simply because people have differing viewpoints. However, it seems if someone doesn't share your viewpoint you make personal attacks stating that they are ignorant. It may be suggested that making personal attacks is more ignorant than ones viewpoint.

I am a skeptic regarding the merits of space exploration. refrain from calling me ignorant.

[~JON]

This thread needs to return to the topic and refrain from personal remarks. Thank you!

[StephenC]

Originally Posted by ianuk

I wasn't going to reply to this thread more simply because people have differing viewpoints. However, it seems if someone doesn't share your viewpoint you make personal attacks stating that they are ignorant. It may be suggested that making personal attacks is more ignorant than ones viewpoint.

I am a skeptic regarding the merits of space exploration. refrain from calling me ignorant.

I did not mean to imply I was calling you ignorant, Shadwell and Ian. I apologize for not making a clearer statement. I think naysayers and skeptics have impeded scientific progress, when they are in positions of power, and some of them have operated from a position of less knowledge than necessary to make an informed judgement.

I appreciate the images from Mars but I would truly be short sighted to think that photos are all that's going to come of it.

Space exploration will continue and we'll get more pictures and my mind is open to what else will come of benefit.

[stlukesguild]

I seriously cannot believe how close-minded and unimaginative some individuals can be. I can almost imagine them whining about the money wasted by Ferdinand and Isabella on this mad voyage across the ocean... and for what? There are people starving at home, dammit! First of all I really don't see what several of our British members are complaining about to start with. It ain't even their dam* money. But let's look at this huge "waste" of $2.5 Billion within it's context:

The US budget in 2012 was $3.7 Trillion. The US Defense Department budget for 2012 was $707.5 billion. Adding in further defense-related expenses such as the FBI, CIA, Veterans pensions and health care, the Department of Homeland Security, and interest accrued on the previous wars raises this budget to $1.030–$1.415 trillion. And we are whining about money "wasted" by NASA in scientific research? The Budget of the US Welfare (Federal Aid for the poor, ill, unemployed, etc...) is $451.9 Billion. The US Health Care Budget is over $850 Billion. The federal budget for education (and the majority of the Education costs are funded by the states) is $153 Billion. As Brian has already noted, just a few weeks costs of the overseas wars cost the US more than NASA's yearly budget. Yet the returns and innovations from the investments in NASA and aerospace research include:

*Satelite Telecommunications
*Improved computer technolgies
*Improved highway safety (grooving, improved tires etc...)
*Water purification systems/Water filters
*Cordless power tools
*Component miniaturization facilitated development of the personal computer and cellphone.
*Light-emitting diodes (LEDs)
*Ventricular assist device (Heart Pump)
*Artificial limbs
*Aircraft anti-icing systems
*Laser (ear) thermometers
*Improved firefighting equipment
*Freeze drying
*Solar energy technologies
*Powdered lubricants used in advanced aeropropulsion engines, refrigeration compressors, turbochargers, and hybrid electrical turbogenerators and other widespread industrial applications.
*Improved mining safety
*Advances in MRI technology
*Weather satellites
*GPS

In 2002 (the most recent year such studies were made) the aerospace industry accounted for $95 billion of economic activity in the United States, including $23.5 billion in employee earnings dispersed among some 576,000 employees.

[ianuk]

I still don't believe that space exploration and most of technology enhances human life, which, by the way has been my argument all along. What the US does with it's money as you say is entirely their business. If people wish to explore and get more and more technology, that's great too. However, no matter what is written here and no matter what aspects are put forward. I will personally never believe that technology as a whole enhances human life. I think it slowly degrades it.

Exploration on it's own to discover new things or spending money, I have no problem with. I only have a problem with believing the same as others that technology enhances human life. I just don't think it does.


If that makes me short sighted stlukesguild then so be it! However, it may come to pass, that you are the short sighted one, there is no right and wrong here. Just difference.

By the way, stlukesguild. Why do I feel I should be in awe and reverence when you enter a thread or add a post here, like some great mighty god of forums? (not sarcasm, it's really how your posts make me feel)