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Old 05-04-2012, 05:20 AM
LittleSkink LittleSkink is offline
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Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I have a quandary and despite lots of pondering and a few poor replacement choices (eg Quin Red, Permanent Rose) I still cant figure out what to replace my Alizarin Crimson with. It is mostly used in very dilute washes or mixes for landscape work

W&N list a Permanent Alizarin Crimson version but that too seems to have borderline permanance. DS have one or two colours that seem to come close too

So what do people find is their "best" alternative?

And what is it about the colour that is so lovely? I know I love it but I dont really think I could describe why
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:22 AM
ingegerd ingegerd is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I use Perylene Maroon and Permanent Rose, seperatly or mixed together depending on what I want. Mixed together they get very close to Alizarin Crimson.

Last edited by ingegerd : 05-04-2012 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:15 AM
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CharM CharM is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I've been struggling with the very same challenge of finding something that can adequately fill the need for a rich, blood red pigment...

I like the suggestion of mixing perylene maroon which seems too dark and dull with permanent rose which is too pink in my opinion... I'll try this mix today!
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:21 AM
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Mike3839 Mike3839 is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

Excuse my ignorance, but is Alizarin Crimson not permanent? I use it in part for my flesh mixes. Are my faces going to dissapear?

Mike
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:38 AM
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virgil carter virgil carter is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

Traditional Alizarin Crimson (like Rose Madder, Auerolin and some other traditional paints) is fugutive, according to many sources. It makes sense to find a substitute.

Unfortunately, in the case of Alizarin, there's really nothing that can replace the hue of the original Alzarin. As mentioned Quin Rose (or Permanent Rose) and P. Maroon come close and are wonderful hues in their own right. Some manufacturers now produce a "Permanent" Aliz. Crimson, using different, newer and more permanent pigments, and it may be a good hue as well (I haven't used it).

I've come to the conclusion that it's important to pick another paint for lightfastness and just move on, even though the replacement isn't exactly the same as Alizarin. For me, Quin Rose is an acceptable substitute.

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Old 05-04-2012, 08:42 AM
LittleSkink LittleSkink is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

alas W&N Alizarin Crimson is one of their very few fugitive pigments. I suspect all 'proper' Alizarin Crimson paints from other manufacturers are too

www.handprint.com has lots of comments/concerns about its widespread use and mention in beginners books etc and how that is a bad thing

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html

Mike - if your paintings are on show in daylight then yes I think the red will dissappear eventually. Whether that happens "in real life" I am unsure but would be interested to find out
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:12 AM
sashntash sashntash is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I use W & N's Permanent Alizarin Crimson and have been very happy with it. However, I have never used the old Alizarin Crimson so I can't compare the two.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:16 AM
M.L. Schaefer M.L. Schaefer is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I'm lucky as I'm a newcomer to watercolor, and I've never had to fall in love with fugitive Alizarin Crimson and then find a replacement. I've tried a number of Alizarins, the one that I find the most luscious and gorgeous, deep color and able to fade out nicely without becomine wimpy is Alizarin Crimson by Old Holland...it is very pricey, but its base is PR108, which is Cadmium, and thus the high price....possibly even higher because it is such a beautiful mixer and transparent.....I've tried lower-priced versions, Da Vinci is nice, but not quite rich enough for my blood!

It takes some getting used to, changing colors...I remember when I absolutely fell in love with Opera (Opus)...there are still a lot of folk that think some Operas are not as fugitive as others! Not so. Best thing I did (and most difficult) was just not even having one little bitty tube of it, if I don't have it, I can't use it!

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Old 05-04-2012, 03:24 PM
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molly007 molly007 is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I have Holbein Perm. Aliz.Crimson. I got that after trying Perylene Maroon by DaVinci and it was just dead and lifeless. I'm going to try putting some quin rose in it as said above. I'm fine with the Holbein.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:40 PM
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I picked up a $2 tube of perylene maroon from Grumbacher Academy and I am just in love with it. But, it is fairly dark, so it may not be for everyone. I actually like it better then the itty bitty sample of Alizarin I played with, and much more interesting then the Alizarin hues I've ended up with.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:46 PM
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I'm like M.L. in that by the time I came to watercolours,and although I did get caught buying a tube of the old Aliz Crimson,there was enough info out there to make using it a bad idea.So I never got used to it.I do have a tube of W&N Permanent Alizarin but using it is just not worth it for me as it is just too borderline and so I mess around with Perylene Maroon and Quin Rose until I get a deep colour.I would only use it to deepen say Quin Rose/Quin Red hue anyway because as I say I never got into using it.But it does make a lovely shadow colour with a blue.
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:42 PM
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Horsa Horsa is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

Just to clarify, as I am fairly recent to watercolour, does the current "Permanent Alizarin Crimson" suffer from the same lightfastness issues that the original (genuine) "Alizarin Crimsion" did?

Given how often colour names and pigmnent names are tossed around without pigment numbers it can be difficult to tell which is being discussed when.
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:07 PM
LittleSkink LittleSkink is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

Horsa - you are right PR83 is the fugitive Alizarin Crimson

"Permanent" I think comes in a number of guises, W&N make their from 2 pigments and I think only 1 has a PR number. Not sure about the other options

W&N Permanent Carmine has been suggested to me as another alternative as apparently that is part of the W&N Permanent Alizarin Crimson mixture
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:13 PM
StephJBee StephJBee is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

I didn't use Alizarin Crimson, so take this with a grain of salt, but I admit I'm surprised not to see more people using Daniel Smith's Anthraquinoid Red (PR177). PR177 is one of the five pigments that Handprint mentions as a potential AC substitute, and I have to say I really like the DS version-- it's a beautiful intense crimson on its own, not as pink as Quin Rose or as dull as Perylene Maroon, and so far it seems to be a pretty nice mixer. I was scared off by Handprint's description of PR177's "marginal lightfastness" at first, but it seems to vary quite a lot based on brand and his rating for the Daniel Smith version is 7/8 for both tinting and full strength, which is actually pretty good (and better than his ratings for most of the paints sold as Permanent Alizarin Crimson). DS rates Anthraquinoid Red's lightfastness as "Excellent," but it doesn't seem to have been rated by the ASTM yet. It's worth doing some lightfastness tests on, I think, but if it's as permanent as DS claims then it could be a really nice option.

Edited to add: Wait, Handprint says ASTM gave it a "fair" rating in 1999, but another more recent posting on a different website claims the the ASTM rating is now "excellent," and Daniel Smith says it's unrated? Confusing!

Last edited by StephJBee : 05-04-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:36 PM
M.L. Schaefer M.L. Schaefer is offline
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Re: Alternative to Alizarin Crimson?

If you know the pigment number, you can check here http://www.artiscreation.com/yellow.html for lightfastness, its peculiarities, who manufacturers it, etc. I find it a great help! And, be aware, that although the pigment number may be the same, the chroma may be TOTALLY different from one manufacturer to the next! A good thing to try is to buy small pans or tubes of a color in which you are interested and see if it works for you. I suggest a small tube (you can resell it later on eBay if you do not like it)! It seems colors are as individual as fashion for each person! Wet Canvas is such a good resource to see what's what.

In fact, I will go ahead and paint a swatch of my Alizarin Crimson(s) - I have a couple since I was trying to bet the high cost of the Old Holland. Light should be good for that tomorrow a.m. for taking photos. Maybe some other folks can do the same ...it could be a learning experience for us all!

M.L.
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