Putting my toe in the water

[Nonno]

Hi Lee,

Once threads disappear off the front page of the forum they tend to go quiet.
Too many new ones to occupy people's attention.


Yours has been one of the more interesting ones, and probably the most controversial one we have had on the figure forum for quite a while!

As far as your images go, I like the way that many have got a strong 3D or statue-like quality to them.

I wonder, have you ever posed for a life drawing group?
I suspect that if you can hold the poses you would enjoy the experience!

Jonathan.

[ArtistOz]

Originally Posted by dgford

Bill, I am just as curious as to why you say Lee is an artist just because he makes his work according to your theories of art making.

I now retire from this discourse beause most must be becoming more than bored with two Aussies being thick skulled.

Geoff

Geoff I don't know what to do with you its not my theories that define what an artist is, its Lee's comments in his opening post quoted below that tell me he see's himself as an artist making art. I have just accepted him at face value like I accept all posters here as artists unless they say differently.

Originally Posted by LeZart

What started as an experiment, has developed into a new (for me) art form.
I have been a frustrated artist almost as long as I can remember. I had some skills but no training, no innate abilities, and little gratification in my attempts. Digital photography and digital editing tools have allowed me to express the artistic side of me better than any medium I have ever experimented with. I never considered self-shot nude photos as an artistic subject matter for me, but that is what has happened, lol.


They were created to experiment with photography, to experiment with artistic interpretations of the nude male image, and to get the vicarious excitement of a digital form of exhibitionism, lol.

Now I am experimenting with sharing these images with others. I hope to get some honest reactions to the art itself and to the concept of male nudity in general.
Lee

Its ok to disagree over what is art, to say something is not art would mean that there are examples of what is art to refer to, to contrast with nonart so its clear however in our culture the boundaries and definitions of art are always being challenged by artists and these hooligans of culture are continually expanding what we know as art. We may not agree with what we see I certainly dont like a lot of art I see these days but I'm not in control I am just an observer trying to explain to students and friends what is art now.

Given our contempory climate I thought it was rude of you to tell him he is not an artist unless he does X and B. I never heard of that limitation before so I challenged you.

Its a culture that defines who are artists many years ago a polish artist told me that to call yourself an artist in Poland you have to have a master's degree in Art first. I don't know if that is the case now that was long ago under a different regime our current western regime has a very broad idea of who and what are artists.

My theories on art are very simple in order to help students understand art and art making better, like I said earlier an artist takes an idea and makes it visible, they can use any method to get the result they want, maybe its a lousy idea with a lousy result or a great idea with a lousy result or a great result it all happens. Artists are not the only people who do this but we are talking about artists and what they do.

When faced with something they dont understand I told my students to look for the subject matter and the medium there is always a subject and its expressed through a medium those two aspects are my theory of art to explain what an artist does and how she communicates her ideas. Hope I have satisfied your curiousity and given Lee a license to practise art

[LeZart]

Originally Posted by Nonno

As far as your images go, I like the way that many have got a strong 3D or statue-like quality to them.

I have often wondered about why an artist’s work looks the way it does. The simplest explanation I have come up with because that is either how they REALLY see or feel about their subjects or because that is how they WANT to see and feel about their subjects. I tend to lean more toward the Want to see approach, lol.

As a kid, I was always fascinated by the way some comic book art looked – especially ‘Super Hero’ themed comics - the images were not ‘flat’. Figures ‘jumped’ off the page - the colors were often bold and intense. I had the same reaction to some of the early Disney animated movies. Fantasia and The Sorcerer’s Apprentice still ‘grab me by the throat’. I was ‘moved’ by the vibrancy of the colors, the morphing of one object into another, the juxtaposition between the nonsensical and the sublime.
The works of Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta, and a few others who worked in similar genres and styles also caught my eye. I liked the ‘feel’ of them. When I was a bit older I added pin up art to my evolving artistic appreciation list. ‘Exotic’ sounding names like Alberto Vargas, Olivia De Berardinis, Armando Huerta, and Luis Yoyo became familiar. (I admit to a certain male fascination with images of scantily clad females) but it was more than that. It was the compositional looks and unique stylistic approachs that I found a connection with.

Almost all my figure manipulation and compositional choices are strongly influenced by my attempts to add some aspect of 3D to my art. It is nice to know that others see this. It means I may be on the right track, lol.

Originally Posted by Nonno

I wonder, have you ever posed for a life drawing group?

As a much younger man I like to think I would have been as likely as not to have done so. Showing a lot of skin was no big issue to me then but it is now. I think my best remedy for handling this on going confusion is for me to start adding the follow to every figure image I post:

ARTIST DISCLAIMER: THE MODEL FOR THESE IMAGES (ME) IS A 67 YEAR OLD MAN WHO IS 40 POUNDS OVERWEIGHT AND HAS HIS SHARE OF WRINKLES, CRINKLES, AGE SPOTS, SCARS, SAGS, BAGS, BUMPS AND BULGES.
**All images have been modified to conceal these aspects, lol**.


Lee

[Lauren F-M]

Hi Lee,

I'm arriving late to the discussion here; been off WC for a few weeks....

Thank you for posting your work and starting a very lively and interesting discussion. I enjoyed looking at your work here and hearing about the process.

I see it as a creative exploration of yourself, the human figure, design, colour, and learning and experimenting with a new medium: digital art, alongside photography. While you are not 'drawing' or 'painting', you are making creative decisions, working from your own designed/posed photos. It's a natural thing to use oneself as the subject: free, available, and private.

As to where the work should be on WC: in Digital, Photography and/or The Figure, IMHO.

One thing you might consider, in regard to how you are 'reshaping' the figure: I'd advise looking at some photo/ anatomical references, so you don't slim the figure down too much in the mid-section. A few of these images have been overly-slimmed, I think. The bone structure and muscular structure would require a bit more girth, esp. in the hips and butt, I think.

Thanks for starting the thread!

[LeZart]

Originally Posted by Lauren F-M

I'm arriving late to the discussion here....

Thank you for posting your work and starting a very lively and interesting discussion. I enjoyed looking at your work here and hearing about the process.

Thank you Lauren, for your input and kind words. I have always heard that it is better to arrive late than to never arrive at all (or something along those lines), lol.

I am somewhat amazed at the 'firestorm' this thread initiated. It turned into much more than I had anticipated and it took some turns I never imagined.

I suspect that most contributors to such sites are just average people (like me) who are looking for some sort of personal validation or simply to become part of something bigger than themselves.

That is all I expected. I definitely did not expect such a visceral reaction (to my images) based on whether or not they should even be considered as art. It does not take a trained eye to see that a fair amount of what is posted at community art sites is just plain bad art and even this bad art gets it's share of 'nice image' replies. However, I cannot recall a single instance at any community art site where someone was told that what they have submitted should not even be considered as art at all.

I have no doubts about whether or not my images are art. Of course they are. I don't even have any doubts as to whether or not they should be posted in this forum. Of course they should. My confusion has been with regards to - why were these issues even introduced into the conversation here, lol.

I appreciate the kind remarks and support that has been offered. I will consider the objective critiques that were given. I will overlook the inexplicable bias that has been demonstrated by a few.

Thanks again for your input.

Lee

[kevinwueste]

Originally Posted by LeZart

Thank you Lauren, for your input and kind words. I have always heard that it is better to arrive late than to never arrive at all (or something along those lines), lol.

I am somewhat amazed at the 'firestorm' this thread initiated. It turned into much more than I had anticipated and it took some turns I never imagined.

I suspect that most contributors to such sites are just average people (like me) who are looking for some sort of personal validation or simply to become part of something bigger than themselves.

That is all I expected. I definitely did not expect such a visceral reaction (to my images) based on whether or not they should even be considered as art. It does not take a trained eye to see that a fair amount of what is posted at community art sites is just plain bad art and even this bad art gets it's share of 'nice image' replies. However, I cannot recall a single instance at any community art site where someone was told that what they have submitted should not even be considered as art at all.

I have no doubts about whether or not my images are art. Of course they are. I don't even have any doubts as to whether or not they should be posted in this forum. Of course they should. My confusion has been with regards to - why were these issues even introduced into the conversation here, lol.

I appreciate the kind remarks and support that has been offered. I will consider the objective critiques that were given. I will overlook the inexplicable bias that has been demonstrated by a few.

Thanks again for your input.

Lee

What is a "community art site" vs this place ? Perhaps they don't have the breadth of worldwide members this site has. I would say this is in any way you view it - a community art site.

As to your works here - I think they are visually interesting and I applaud the ideas for sure that have gone into them. In my opinion ( I take off my hat as a moderator ) - this is digital manipulation of photographs and is most appropriate to the digital art or photography sections. By and large ( I am trying to think of the contributor that does not fit this description) the work here is hand made-draw/paint/sculpt from the live model or reference or a master copy. There are also from-scratch digital works - they differ from what you have posted in that they began with drawing. Most of the folks are working to develop their drawing, painting, sculpting skills regarding the human. That is the nut of this forum. Is what anyone does here "art" - the only relevant answer to that question comes from your audience - at least to me ( that is, unless we only create our work for ourselves, then we, individually have the only opinion that matters).

Moderator hat back on - any bias is easily "explicable" in that you are dealing with individuals supplying their opinions. Now, is what they have said fair ? That is certainly in the eye of the beholder. If this is a fire storm, you have missed the galactic implosions that come from time to time in the forums! One of the things that makes this a successful community is a bit of the dissolution of ego. What does that mean ? It tends to mean we not only post our work to share and receive feedback ( kudo, crit, firestorm or galactic implosions and everything in between) but we look and comment on others work as well. So, I recommend that - "belong" ideal or not aside, if you are part of this place - you engage more broadly.

And, I am heartened when anyone finds work they enjoy doing - perhaps that is more important than any of this.

-Kevin

[ArtistOz]

Originally Posted by kevinwueste

Moderator hat back on - any bias is easily "explicable" in that you are dealing with individuals supplying their opinions. Now, is what they have said fair ? That is certainly in the eye of the beholder. but we look and comment on others work as well. So, I recommend that - "belong" ideal or not aside, if you are part of this place - you engage more broadly.

And, I am heartened when anyone finds work they enjoy doing - perhaps that is more important than any of this.

-Kevin

Good grief Kevin he is not denying that wetcanvas is a community art site. I agree with you about the "what is fair" comment yet it seems to me the man has a right to fight ignorance and express his disappointment in attitudes that don't belong in the figure forum. Whether it is a firestorm or one man or many wrestling with their egos I'm surprised by some of the comments by posters and now your comments in bold below given this is a subject specific forum where medium is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by kevinwueste

In my opinion ( I take off my hat as a moderator ) - this is digital manipulation of photographs and is most appropriate to the digital art or photography sections. By and large ( I am trying to think of the contributor that does not fit this description) the work here is hand made-draw/paint/sculpt from the live model or reference or a master copy. There are also from-scratch digital works - they differ from what you have posted in that they began with drawing. Most of the folks are working to develop their drawing, painting, sculpting skills regarding the human. That is the nut of this forum.
-Kevin

Its natural that posters working with the figure in any medium would gravitate to the figure forum. The commonality in solving similar problems should not exclude diverse working methodologies. As to what is the nut of this forum I am sadly reminded of DanaT's words below.

When I became a member 9 years ago. Dana was the moderator along with Mac I believe, so long ago now. She had a no nonsense sensible approach and was along with Mac a very sound moderator she would never put up with this "because of this use of medium" it belongs elsewhere crap. Neither would I when I was a moderator here.

May I remind members the values we used to expouse in the forum and are still written in the sticky.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...88#post3187288

Let me remind you.

Originally Posted by DanaT

The Figure forum is a pretty open forum. We accept any type of artwork as long as some part of the human body is shown and as long as the artwork doesn't contain anything that is not allowed in the Users Agreement. We welcome both nudes and the clothed human body.

We also value the diversity of several different kinds of responses.

We don't dictate to members what kind of artwork they post as long as they represent the human figure and we don't dictate what kind of responses members can give as long as they follow the tenets of the users agreement.

The Figure Forum Staff

Some years ago this was a lively forum now it feels like an exclusive club on the margins of the universe. Although my personal interest is in figure drawing I value and like to hope the figure forum is still the open minded forum I remember and has not strayed too far from its original ideals. I expected Moderators to have jumped in quickly and supported those ideals sadly its not the case any more.

[kevinwueste]

Originally Posted by ArtistOz

Good grief Kevin he is not denying that wetcanvas is a community art site. I agree with you about the "what is fair" comment yet it seems to me the man has a right to fight ignorance and express his disappointment in attitudes that don't belong in the figure forum. Whether it is a firestorm or one man or many wrestling with their egos I'm surprised by some of the comments by posters and now your comments in bold below given this is a subject specific forum where medium is irrelevant.



Its natural that posters working with the figure in any medium would gravitate to the figure forum. The commonality in solving similar problems should not exclude diverse working methodologies. As to what is the nut of this forum I am sadly reminded of DanaT's words below.

When I became a member 9 years ago. Dana was the moderator along with Mac I believe, so long ago now. She had a no nonsense sensible approach and was along with Mac a very sound moderator she would never put up with this "because of this use of medium" it belongs elsewhere crap. Neither would I when I was a moderator here.

May I remind members the values we used to expouse in the forum and are still written in the sticky.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...88#post3187288

Let me remind you.



Some years ago this was a lively forum now it feels like an exclusive club on the margins of the universe. Although my personal interest is in figure drawing I value and like to hope the figure forum is still the open minded forum I remember and has not strayed too far from its original ideals. I expected Moderators to have jumped in quickly and supported those ideals sadly its not the case any more.

Good grief Bill. "a right to fight ignorance .." - I think, upon further reading you can find nothing that I have written that denies anyone their right to fight or defend or talk about anything. I read what he wrote, not your interpretation of it - I used my own.

How about we go back to the beginning ( which is where I started and thought I might write what I put into my post above:

Originally Posted by LeZart

Unfortunately, I have not found an appropriate venue where I can share my images and hopefully get some honest critiques. My images do not fall into an easily identified genre nor style. Although they do explicitly depict full male nudity, they are not created specifically for a gay audience.

They were created to experiment with photography, to experiment with artistic interpretations of the nude male image, and to get the vicarious excitement of a digital form of exhibitionism, lol.

Inherent here is "what /where is the "appropriate venue" to share the work. Additionally, I read the comment by LeZart about "experiment with photography with atistic interpretations ... digital form of exhibitionism.." These verbal queues, to me, made sense to then suggest some forums where the work might get perhaps even more useful thought and feedback than here ( see earlier commentary). I wrote, as a member, what I felt - in my time here - this place is about. I did not write that it is not appropriate - just what I have seen. I missed the digital manipulations or other more open-minded "" works you are referring to that have been, apparently banished in recent years. Furthermore, the point about the community here - however well or poorly I made it, was my intent to encourage LeZart ( and everyone) to engage with other members on their work. This is the biggest issue I see with new members - the lack of engagement across the community by and large.

I do recall a fairly recent poster leaving because folks give him feedback about the drawing and value and color decisions he was making in his work. I'm disappointed he left but still confused as to why exactly he did.


Nostalgia is interesting - the site is dynamic - the people change, the dynamic changes - the older we all get, the harder these changes are to accept. That my commentary does not feel open to you compared to a previous moderator - or you - it is telling of perhaps one thing - that the community today is different.

I think there is a pretty healthy live and let live environment here but maybe I can't see or empathize with "9 years ago" - I wasn't drawing anything at that point but doodles at some meeting with my fellow executives.

But the community will not stop its shifting and development for you, me or this poster - though we shall all, wittingly or not, contribute to it. "Back-in-the-day" thinking - is it useful ? I don't know; is it relevant - perhaps - it is part of the fabric of this site but what the forum is now, or WC as a whole is a continually moving, shifting thing. Perhaps at some point soon I will be an old-timer and be so viscerally disappointed in the current membership, guides/moderators/software etc., - though I hope, mostly I will be painting and drawing and engaging with folks to help them, to share and all that.

-Kevin

[ArtistOz]

Ahhh I see I have misread your motives in suggesting another forum and your description of the forum as a proscription. I apologise for that.

I didnt think you were denying peoples right to fight ignorance I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in that Lee has a right to bitch and I agreed with you on the "what is fair" comment, not all comments will be fair and just.

I agree communities change and I admit I miss the 'good old days' and my friends. 'Back in the day' I thought the values were worth keeping Mac will know more of what I am talking about I believe.

"Perhaps at some point soon I will be an old-timer and be so viscerally disappointed in the current membership, guides/moderators/software etc.,"

That 'viscerally' comment stung am I really just an old reactionary? How sad for me if that is the case; that I am coming across as an old whinger.

[Lauren F-M]

Lively discussion is a good thing, and that art posted here has been the muse to start one here, and subsequently encouraged a lively exchange is good -- we can all keep cool heads and share and learn.

I think that Lee posting his images in the Figure forum is good in many ways. We are used to seeing lots of nude figures here, so expect some good response here on the human figure part, and the design, etc.

Perhaps also posting in the Digital Art forum is useful for the input on the technical part of digital art. Perhaps though, that forum isn't as familiar on the human figure part....

So, this straddles two forums; three if you add the Photography forum.

[kevinwueste]

Originally Posted by ArtistOz

Ahhh I see I have misread your motives in suggesting another forum and your description of the forum as a proscription. I apologise for that.

I didnt think you were denying peoples right to fight ignorance I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in that Lee has a right to bitch and I agreed with you on the "what is fair" comment, not all comments will be fair and just.

I agree communities change and I admit I miss the 'good old days' and my friends. 'Back in the day' I thought the values were worth keeping Mac will know more of what I am talking about I believe.

"Perhaps at some point soon I will be an old-timer and be so viscerally disappointed in the current membership, guides/moderators/software etc.,"

That 'viscerally' comment stung am I really just an old reactionary? How sad for me if that is the case; that I am coming across as an old whinger.

I hope Bill, in the days that have passed since, you have perhaps made some new friends- and while I am certainly a pale shadow of those that have gone before - I do consider you my friend.

-Kevin