Creative Comparison

[Jody Schmidt]

If you want to try something that may dishearten you, take either of these 2 photo side-by-sides and ask any teen, young adult or, actually, just about anyone, whom they think is more creative of the two.
It may quickly become evident that mass media, Hot Topic and Urban Outfitters, as well as the emo-hipster movement in general have spent great effort to promote as 'unique' and 'different' what is quite possibly the most uniform conformist movement in all of human history:
The modern Indie-Hipster-Emo-Punk. These templated outfit wearers are 'rebel consumers' and 'early adopters' and NOT a true avant garde. The standard for standing apart has sunk low. Pretty sad. If I already posted on this, then I am sorry. Just an irksome topic and nowhere better to bring it up than in a true place of individuality and incubator of the modern age, the Cafe Guerbois.


This side by side is none other than Renoir and some random person in a Hot Topic outfit.


This side by side is of Willem de Kooning (on the left) and derivative hipster band Death Cab for Cutie (on the right).

A friend of my GF's son tried to describe de Kooning as a jock, a mindless beeftard, etc., because of the confidence in his look and his kinda square jawed appearance. He then described the indie nobodies on the right as artistic, intellectual, sensitive.

As for Renoir and the random emo, Renoir was described as a stodgy boring old guy who couldnt possibly be more unique and creative than the templated emo on the left because of the piercings, haircut, etc.

[RiJoRi]

Hmmm, with photo manipulation, you could give Renoir the body carp, and remove them from the kid. Then who would be "more creative"?

'Way back when I was but a yout', in the Golden Age of Hippie-dumb, the sign of "individuality" was blue jeans!! Yep, everyone wore them, and was proud of being different!

This reminds me of a cartoon I saw: Hippies on a down escalator glaring at Punkers on an up escalator, glaring back. The caption read, "The more things change, the more they remain insane!"

--Rich

[mek42]

I think this is more a youth thing than a dearth of creativity thing. There is such pressure to conform while still having a counter-cultural self-image. I don't think it is until you are paying your own bills (the modern Western coming-of-age ceremony) that you can begin to realize that no one really cares and just be who you want to be.

[Horsa]

Brian: You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anyone. You're all different.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! we're all different.

Brian: You're all individuals.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! we're all individuals.

Lone Voice: I'm not.

Brian: You've got to work it out for yourselves.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves.
<pause>
Crowd: (in unison) Show us, Master. How shall we work it out for ourselves?

It's a funny thing how non-conformist subcultures can be more uniform and aggressively conformist than the mainstream isn't it?

I like the Men Without Hats approach, "we can dress real neat, from our hats to our feet, then surprise them with a victory cry!"

[Keith Russell]

I guess I don't see any reason (whatsoever) why I should care (one little bit) which of two people in a couple photographs the "average person on the street" thinks is more "creative"--and I can see good reason to care even less, if the "average person on the street" is a teenager, or a pre-teen.

I would wager that "the average person on the street" wouldn't know who deKooning was (let alone what he looked like!)--and if they don't even know who he was, there's no way they're going to be able to inuit whether or not he was (at all) "creative".

People make an effort to learn when they feel they "have to", or when they want to (mostly the latter). If they don't care to know about art, you can teach them stuff--but since they don't care about it, they'll forget it almost immediately.

Desire is not easily created...

[vmrs]

I don't think you can tell if a person is creative by the way they look. That's silliness. I'll bet we couldn't even accurately guess what each other looks like (excepting those members who have photos of themselves in their avatar).

Horsa, I now have that song stuck in my head.
You can dance if you want to...
Great song.

[Jody Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Horsa

Brian: You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anyone. You're all different.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! we're all different.

Brian: You're all individuals.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! we're all individuals.

Lone Voice: I'm not.

Brian: You've got to work it out for yourselves.

Crowd: (in unison) Yes! We've got to work it out for ourselves.
<pause>
Crowd: (in unison) Show us, Master. How shall we work it out for ourselves?

It's a funny thing how non-conformist subcultures can be more uniform and aggressively conformist than the mainstream isn't it?

I like the Men Without Hats approach, "we can dress real neat, from our hats to our feet, then surprise them with a victory cry!"

Ha! Well put. 'We can watch Barney Miller, We can watch Phil Donahue...'

[Jody Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Keith Russell

I would wager that "the average person on the street" wouldn't know who deKooning was (let alone what he looked like!)--and if they don't even know who he was, there's no way they're going to be able to inuit whether or not he was (at all) "creative".

True, but in absence of such knowlege, to assume that the person with hipster glasses is more creative is not cool and is wildly innacurate as to who is actually artistic, unique or creative. It's like fundamentally assuming a volcano is cold and a glacier is hot. It is almost opposite of what is true and what should be assumed! Cheers!

[opainter]

I think the emphasis on looks usually comes from personal insecurity.

Need I say more?

[AllisonR]

Right or wrong, people make quick assumptions because it is engrained into us. For the last 4 million years or more. Very large, fast moving male animal... should I try to run, or hide, or throw a rock at him? Animal of same species - scanning the facial expressions and clothing - is this a member of my tribe, another tribe, possible friend, possible foe...?

It may be less necessary today, but certainly not totally irrelevant. From the top text and then the pictures, I personally assumed that the 1st guy was very intense, maybe very bright - just look into his eyes. I assumed the 2nd person was an average girl from NYC, who was trying so very hard to be different that she is totally plain Jane. The bottom two pictures didn't register much of anything with me. IRL, these bottom four people would have hit my peripheral vision and disappeared again as quickly.

[Horsa]

Of the bottom four, the unnamed woman looks the most interesting to me....

[caldwell.brobeck]

Originally Posted by Horsa

Of the bottom four, the unnamed woman looks the most interesting to me....

That's Elaine de Kooning, born Elaine Marie Catherine Fried.

[Jody Schmidt]

Originally Posted by AllisonR

Right or wrong, people make quick assumptions because it is engrained into us. For the last 4 million years or more. Very large, fast moving male animal... should I try to run, or hide, or throw a rock at him? Animal of same species - scanning the facial expressions and clothing - is this a member of my tribe, another tribe, possible friend, possible foe...?

It may be less necessary today, but certainly not totally irrelevant. From the top text and then the pictures, I personally assumed that the 1st guy was very intense, maybe very bright - just look into his eyes. I assumed the 2nd person was an average girl from NYC, who was trying so very hard to be different that she is totally plain Jane. The bottom two pictures didn't register much of anything with me. IRL, these bottom four people would have hit my peripheral vision and disappeared again as quickly.

The quick assumptions are only problematic when they are fundamentally opposite of reality in almost every instance:
It is almost certain that a person wearing a Hot Topic outfit will not be creative, whereas many assume the opposite because they havent updated the mass culture perception that has been lagging since 1960, that 'conservative' attire somehow correlates with a boring personality and lack of individuality. But it is the emo templates that are way more conformist than any average American from the 1950s, and they are almost fundamentally unable to see it in themselves.

Also, Willem de Kooning (bottom pair, guy in polo shirt [if polo shirts existed then! otherwise its just a collared shirt] with girl) does look kinda blah, which is why labeling can be so deceptive, since he is one of the most original artists of the last 100 years. He is literally 1000x more creative than the indie nobodies on the right.

Just irks me! Sorry for ranting.

[Viking55803]

Personal grooming and adornment are among the few creative activities most people engage in, particularly the young. It is usually practiced entirely in the service of the ego as part of the cultivation of a persona or image, or for the purpose of conformity to a social group (and intentional non-comformity is just another form of conformity.) This is not to say its a bad thing. All human cultures everywhere for the past 10,000 years (at least) have engaged in these forms of personal expression.

It is a form of creative expression, just not a particularly meaningful one despite the attention our commercial culture gives to appearances in general. It also doesn't tell you anything about the "soul" of the person underneath, does it?

I remember in the 1960's as a young man learning the hard way that not all hippies were about peace, love, and brotherhood. Appearances are deceptive. I was a political radical and an active member of the "counterculture." This was so long ago, that the first time I experimented with LSD, it was still a legal drug! But I kept my hair short and my clothes clean, wore a tie to work (I did sport a trimmed beard and drove a Volvo, which made me suspect in some circles.) This was entirely conscious and deliberate. The last thing I wanted was to be labeled for what I really was. It was actually a disguise!

[vmrs]

It is almost certain that a person wearing a Hot Topic outfit will not be creative, whereas many assume the opposite because they havent updated the mass culture perception that has been lagging since 1960, that 'conservative' attire somehow correlates with a boring personality and lack of individuality. But it is the emo templates that are way more conformist than any average American from the 1950s, and they are almost fundamentally unable to see it in themselves.

No, the only thing for certain about a person wearing a Hot Topic outfit is that they're wearing a Hot Topic outfit. Anything else is conjecture.
How one perceives and talks about other people doesn't say anything about those people but it does say quite a bit about oneself.