Oil Paint Splurge -Advice on a Cad light red

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

Hi everyone,

Having worked nights over all of Easter --> public holidays. I felt that i deserved a treat. I'm going to upgrade my oil paints.

I inherited my MIL's Paints which are mostly Georgian Oils paints or Winton. With a very occasional W&N artist or Rowney Artist series thrown in. I love the way the expensive paints work. Have been meaning to do it for a while its just been ... on the cards.... I havn't been able to justify a splurge.

While my skill is not necessarily up to justifying a paint upgrade, if i have learnt one thing off this forum is that "If you can afford more expensive paint, you will more likely than not be happy with your choice to upgrade." Might as well learn with a better quality paint. I really really can't justify OH or M. Harding or Bloxx paints as much as i have drooled over their colour charts and have had no end of advice to get them. I just can't. I would be afraid to use them. W&N i will not be afraid.


I was considering the Art Spectrum paints, but am probably more likely going to get the Winsor and Newton Artist paints. Simply because i have 3-4 and i like the way they work. It might cost me an extra $$ than AS but you know what they say about the "devil you know..." From discussions here they are a reasonable quality. *On a side note, are they actually any better than Art Spectrum paints???? I have obviously never used AS.*


I am planning to go for a fairly "old fashioned palatte" if that is a suitable term, as i love the earthy muted painting colours with the occasional splurge of vermillion or ultramarine. I do not like to paint modern, impasto, abstract paintings full of super bright colours. I have been playing around with the Georgian equivalents of some of the paints and studied the palattes of artists that i like. the earthy tones also means that the cost of the paints is reduced. Many of the colours that i need are less expensive. However i still need to get those quality Cads and blues. Thankfully I have a W&N Artist Veridian and Rose Madder already saving me $60.

Question: One colour i was having difficulty finding was a close enough copy of Vermillion. I have read the forum here and it suggests that a Cadmium Red Light would do the trick? Does W&N do one of these? The colour chart here --> link --> Only shows Cadmium Red and Cadmium Red Deep. I would like a suggestion for this colour. If i have to go to a different brand that is all good. Or will the W&N Cad red do the trick??

Paint brands that i have easy access to here in Aussie (that i know of) are: AS, W&N, Rowney Artist, Lefranc Borgois, archival.


Just for interest:

These are the other ones that i am buying/have already in artist grade: --> I don't intend all of these to be on the palatte but wanted to try them. Advice/personal experiences welcome

Fr. Ultramarine (already have W&N)
Phthalo Blue (Already have Rowney Artist)
Cobalt Blue
? Cerulean Blue

Viridian (Already have W&N)
Sap green (Already have Rowney Artist)

Cad yellow medium
**Cad yellow light --> (I Assume this is the same as Cad yellow pale??)
**Cad light red --> (or other substitute for vermillion - suggestions welcome)
?? Cad orange

Rose Madder (Have W&N)
Need perhaps permanent Alzarin Crimson or Crinacridone red ??? --> and suggestions??

Earthy colours:
Green earth (assume this is Terra verte??)
Venetian Red (Already have W&N)
**Red Ochre --> is this in W&N paints under a different name??
Yellow Ochre
Umbers and Siennas


Oh and i am CERTAINLY buying better whites. Winton White is awful. I have read some discussion on the problems with white and apparently a mix of Zinc and Titanium might be handy? So i was going to buy both and experiment. I just find Titanium too "chalky" for what i want to do.

Anyway this is my research so far. No doubt that when i get them i will probably only use 5 to begin with (not necessarily a bad thing at all) but i can't experiment and try if i don't have them in the basket. The "Hues" just don't seem to be as good.

Hope everyone had a nice holiday.

Sarah

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

Ah i missed Rembrant oils and Van Gogh off the list of oil paints that i could access easily.

Thanks again :-)

[lovin art]

Hues are a Low grade of Paint, less pigment for starters, - Like a poor mans version of a better quality , if it was me Id say go the better W&N , it is what mOST good teachers to my mind would suggest and seeing as how your a beginner it is far better to start out with the right tools !

also you could try the advanced search on here in the tools section for looking into better colors threads you could also try the color and theory forum for some interesting threads on the subject , as color is all relative for sure !

[DaveGhmn]

Ultimately, it's not the name on the tube, but the color you're chasing. I think (but am not sure) that the closest W&N Artist Oil Colour comes to cadmium red light is cadmium scarlet. Unfortunately, it's their most expensive pigment, $US 40 at my local Michael's (big box crafts store).

I've played for almost a year with cyan (really, phthalocyanine blue PB15:3), magenta and lemon yellow and white. Lately I've added cadmium orange hue and ultramarine. From these, I can mix nearly any color I want.

A thought: you might want to examine your bias against hues. Many of our now accepted pigments began as hues -- for example, ultramarine blue PB29 is a "hue" in imitation of pulverized lapis lazuli, the true ultramarine. Only a few paint brands actually supply ochres, or raw or burnt Sienna and Umber -- rather, they give you synthetic iron oxides in imitation of iron-bearing clays.

Interestingly, I tested my cadmium orange hue against W&N Artist Oil Colour (genuine) cadmium orange and Grumbacher Pre-Tested (genuine) cadmium orange. My hue has higher chroma and is more pure than the actual cads.

If nothing else, consider that the creation of synthetic pigments has burgeoned mightily in the last 30 years. The driver (no pun intended)? The automotive industry. Automotives will accept only colors that are lightfast, impervious to environmental chemicals... and as inexpensive as possible. The advances in reds, yellows, purples and greens are especially notable.

[DaveGhmn]

Originally Posted by lovin art

Hues are a Low grade of Paint, less pigment for starters, - ....

http://www.goldenpaints.com/blog/200...th-about-hues/

Mix in the following, as well, from Winsor & Newton:

In 1936 Mon[e]stral Blue was introduced by ICI. Known to us as Phthalocyanine or Winsor Blue, this offered a deep transparent blue of enormous tinting strength yet moderate cost. Prized for its mixing abilities it has also become the basis of many student range blues as it can be reduced and still offer a strong colour.

A very important group of pigments originated in the 1950's. The first quinacridones were introduced to the artist's palette as Permanent Rose and Permanent Magenta. The pink and mauve colour area up till then had suffered from poor lightfastness, now crystal clear hues were available without fading! Over the next 50 years many more colours became available from deep crimson to gold. This is achieved by juggling the chemicals involved. It is a quinacridone which is used as Permanent Alizarin Crimson.

Can it get any better?

By the 1990's more pigment types of synthetic organic origin were appearing. Perylenes, Pyrrols and new arylides (eg.Hansa yellow) have come into use. In some cases new hues are available, further extending the possibilities in water colour or filling a perfect gap in portraiture or even greater transparency for mixing or glazing. In other cases some good lightfast pigments are replaced by even more lightfast pigments, we go from no change for hundreds of years to no change in hundreds and hundreds of years! We are most certainly fortunate to be living and painting now, many a past painter must have twitching fingers wishing to be alive now!

Thanks to the automobile!
The car, has to endure permanent outdoor weather and sunshine in snowbound or desert conditions. That's a tall call for a pigment. Artists have everything to be thankful for that such lightfast pigments had to be developed, without the car we wouldn't have the reds, yellows and purples which we enjoy today.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/sh...st-oil-colors/

genuine cads for $8.50. iirc, gunzorro did a review of with these and
had mostly good things to say. might be worth searching the site to
find it.

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

ahh sorry all, don't actually have that big a bias about "Hues" - Just that i was really referring to the fact that the "Hues" that i have are the low grade Georgian and winton ones. They are really not so fabtastic. I have a cobalt Hue in a more expensive brand which is much nicer :-)

I have no probs trying some hues and yup the synthetic advancements have done a great job (certainly made painting safer and the colours more lightfast... ) Will keep your comments in mind :-)

Sorry for delay in reply - had to wash up dishes. *moan*

Hey Sandra - I've been in the colour forum all day (instead of sleeping off night duty) looking at everything i can. Such a vast resource. That is where i got some of the info about the 'modern' versions of various painter's palattes. So fascinating what they used to use!! I especially liked the threads on what paints people like to use.

Daveghmn - Thanks for the advice about Cadmium Scarlet. I'm happy to purchase that one if it is closest. It's only a few dollars more and will probably last a while. If you have a better option in another brand i'd happily hear it. Or just get that one :-)

Oh and i also love the permanent Alazarin Crimson.

Thanks for your advice!

Sarah

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

Hi Plog, (Great username...grin)

Dick Blick requires a lot of postage to Aussie. So i need to factor that in with the cost of the paints. I've heard some good things about Shiva (prob seen the same review you mention) but i might just stick with the W&N as i know that i like them

Thanks for your help and have a great day!

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

One last question...

Do you think i really need to get both the cadmium scarlet and the cadmium light red? Or might the cad scarlett suffice?? Is it worth the extra 30 dollars to get both.

[llawrence]

Originally Posted by Sarah Edgecumbe

Question: One colour i was having difficulty finding was a close enough copy of Vermillion.

Cad scarlet works pretty well for this as mentioned. I wouldn't think you'd need both it and cad red light.

Originally Posted by Sarah Edgecumbe

Rose Madder (Have W&N)

Woo-hoo! Great paint. Best for glazing rather than general mixing IMO. Although it's a sheer pleasure to use in skin tones, it's not completely lightfast.

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

Hi llawrence,

Many thanks for your reply. It's so fun ordering my first lot of "real" paints. I shall order just the cad scarlet. I don't want to get too many. both because it is expensive AND i don't want to learn how to handle too many all at once. Yes i was very pleased to find the rose madder in the collection of paints bequeathed to me. *squee* although i must say that i havn't actually used more than a mere pinhead of it yet.

Thanks again. I will order them all tomorrow. Just have to stop myself throwing in..."Just one more.." into the order.

Sarah

[monkhaus]

Michael Harding Cadmium Red Light.

Available many places in the AU. Go to his site to check.

[Newb]

Originally Posted by Sarah Edgecumbe

While my skill is not necessarily up to justifying a paint upgrade,

You're kidding I hope. I have been watching your still life work. I think it is quite good. Money is always an issue but you're good enough to feel the difference in how the paint handles. I am learning The Carder Method. By far the most valuable lesson is on mixing colors. He recommends 5 colors. Permanent Alizarin Crimson, Burnt Umber, French Ultramarine, Cadmium Yellow Light, and Titanium White. All Winsor & Newton artist colors but the Titanium White he recommends Rembrant. It helps keep the cost down and from these colors you can make almost all colors with the exception of some bright reds and greens or turquoise where you would need Cadmium Red or Winsor Blue green shade (if I'm not mistaken) or winsor green. I haven't needed them yet. 60% FUM and 40% BU will give you black. You don't have to go crazy buying a million different colors. You will go through more blue and white than the other colors though. What ever you do though, I hope you keep painting.

Here's a link to his supply list read the note at the bottom of the paint section. Please understand I am not trying to push his system but it does help keep the cost within reason by mixing your own colors.
http://www.thecardermethod.com/supplylist/

[Sarah Edgecumbe]

Hi Newb,

Thanks for your vote of confidence :-) I have been looking at limited palattes. I have seen that one, one recommended by Bill martin and a number of others similar to that one. I actually intend on trying a limited set of colours. It does sound like good practice. So far i think i have only used 5-6 colours in my paintings, so i'm sure i could manage it.

For the moment I am going to get a few more colours and limit from there when i know what ones i like best. (I want to get them while i have some spare cash to play with.) I 'm sure i'll only use a few of them very often but i want to see what they look like.


No probs about the advise on the Carder system. I'm sure limiting the paint colours will really help develop painting skills and i do intend on trying it.

Thanks for your message,

Sarah

[verabm]

Hi Sarah,
i am an Aussie also and like to buy the good stuff for myself to paint with. My one indulgence ;0)

i only ever order from overseas as i find it is much cheaper (sorry, but here they cost much too much). I order from Dick Blick in the US and when i want a smaller order (mainly UK/Europe based brands such as Michael Harding, OH, and some W&N) I order from Jacksons Art in the UK. I have found that i save half the cost or more than buying them from here even with postage (or a better paint for the same price of a lesser quality one bought here- if you want to look at it that way). The good thing about both stores is that you place the order and they get back to you with the postage charges to get confirmation. So you can cancel the order if you think it is too costly. And the service is great.

I personally am not a fan of the Art Spectrum (AS) paints though i know a lot of really good artists that use them. The pigment load is not very high in a lot of colours. And i dont find the colours mix as bright or clean as the brands i use. A side by side compasison with the AS and W&N paints- there is a huge difference, and with the AS and even higher grade paints it is unbelievable almost. I think i am a little spoilt now. Having said that, i think the AS Cadmiums are not too bad for the price (particularly from online stores such as theartshop.com.au

I quite like the W&N Winsor Red (a very good synthetic pigment) as sometimes i like to steer clear of the Cadmiums myself, but yes as someone else mentioned, the Cadmium Scarlet should be good.

If you want to spoil yourself with some high grade paints, go for it, they are a true joy to paint with.

Vera :0)