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Old 04-02-2012, 06:42 PM
fritzie fritzie is offline
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Dialogical art

Could someone fill be in on what the controversy is surrounding dialogical art? My understanding of the term, which I first heard used yesterday and therefore might have wrong, is that dialogical art is specifically the engagement of non-artists in collaborative art-making with trained artists.
Do I understand this term correctly? Or is there no controversy?
(I see this question as appropriate for this forum in the sense that collaborative art-making presents creative questions and problems).
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:09 PM
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Re: Dialogical art

Dialogical would be creating dialogue, ie. speaking or interacting through art, I wouldn't think it would be confined to collaborating with non-artists.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:03 PM
mame mame is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Dialogic
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:33 PM
fritzie fritzie is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

Thanks, Mame. Is it possible that site will not allow a non-member to search or see that page?
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:27 AM
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Re: Dialogical art

The definition has to do with literature, and thought. It is similar to Vernadsky's Noosphere, or Teilhard. Actually, I think there are a lot of interesting ideas about connectivity, history, complexity, evolution.

What you are stating above, a collaboration between non-artists and trained artist, is used frequently in museum art, where a scientist who cannot do art, gets together with an artist, and creates a model of something like a dinosaur. In this way, it is probably done in movies as well, when a director has a particular idea about how something looks and has the art department mock it up.

I think that what you mean is more of a collaboration with a person who has an idea, and a person with the skills to carry that out, and many ideas as well. If that is the case, collaboration is a part of many arts.

I don't think there is a controversy here. Many arts are collaborative works. Artists have 100% of control on art that does not have any commissioner. It is still my belief though that if an artist is retained by a gallery or other sales venue, a lot of decisions are made upon what the audience via the galleries sales records considers "salable." This can also be seen as a dialogue.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:34 PM
fritzie fritzie is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

The short piece I read, which regretably I misplaced but which I will be able to find again, made a distinction between "making in" art and "making of" art. "Making in" art refered to a practice of using non-artists in a way that gives the non-artist no creative role in the sense of creative choice. I imagine this might mean something like having the non-artist use a black pen, for example, to draw over pencil lines."Making of" art, I think was more a case of allowing the non-artist a creative role in the sense of a choice along some dimension. Bringing someone from the audience up to a stage to improvise as part of an artist's production might count in this way. I think the discussion centers on whether one or both is authentic engagement, maybe? Or genuinely cultural production?
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:11 PM
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Re: Dialogical art

Did the article define what a "non-artist" actually is?

Because, of course, there's no way to know what a "non-artist" is, without also knowing what an "artist" is! (And, also of course, there's no way to know what an "artist" is, without first defining what "art" is--and I very seriously doubt that your article did that.)

Further, once someone is engaged in making art (and I'm going to avoid the cumbersome "of art" and "in art" distractions...) that person is an artist. Even someone who has never made "art" before joining a (more experienced) artist in creating a work of art, once that person is engaged in that process (that of creating, or helping to create a work of art), they are no longer a "non-artist", and have become an (albeit a, perhaps, far-less-experienced) artist...

Getting "the public" (the "audience") more "involved" in the creative process isn't adding non-artists "to the mix"--it's simply enabling people to transition from being "non-artists" to being aritsts...





Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzie
The short piece I read, which regretably I misplaced but which I will be able to find again, made a distinction between "making in" art and "making of" art. "Making in" art refered to a practice of using non-artists in a way that gives the non-artist no creative role in the sense of creative choice. I imagine this might mean something like having the non-artist use a black pen, for example, to draw over pencil lines."Making of" art, I think was more a case of allowing the non-artist a creative role in the sense of a choice along some dimension. Bringing someone from the audience up to a stage to improvise as part of an artist's production might count in this way. I think the discussion centers on whether one or both is authentic engagement, maybe? Or genuinely cultural production?
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:43 PM
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Re: Dialogical art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Russell
Did the article define what a "non-artist" actually is?

Because, of course, there's no way to know what a "non-artist" is, without also knowing what an "artist" is! (And, also of course, there's no way to know what an "artist" is, without first defining what "art" is--and I very seriously doubt that your article did that.)

Further, once someone is engaged in making art (and I'm going to avoid the cumbersome "of art" and "in art" distractions...) that person is an artist. Even someone who has never made "art" before joining a (more experienced) artist in creating a work of art, once that person is engaged in that process (that of creating, or helping to create a work of art), they are no longer a "non-artist", and have become an (albeit a, perhaps, far-less-experienced) artist...

Getting "the public" (the "audience") more "involved" in the creative process isn't adding non-artists "to the mix"--it's simply enabling people to transition from being "non-artists" to being aritsts...

I may venture to tell you what "art" is. It's aiming at the essence of a subject and hitting the heart of it.

So "artists" aim at reality, as they see it, or as it really is, I prefer the latter because it's beautiful.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:12 PM
fritzie fritzie is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

Keith, I think I understand what many people mean, and what the author meant, by non-artists. If a band were playing and the person at the drum set called out to me and said, "You come here and improvise now behind the guitarists," I could get up there and bang on drums and cymbals, but I would not then call myself a musician. You might call me one, but I think when someone says non-artist, they are thinking of someone like me drumming with the band.
When a project wants non-artists in the mix, they do not want a graduate of RISD. They might be interested in the checker at the grocery store who happens not to have held a paint brush since grade school.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:35 PM
fritzie fritzie is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

I find that dialogical art is not quite what I had thought. It is true that collaboration is involved among artists and those not trained as artists, but dialogical art seems to be about the dialog itself rather than anything produced beyond the dialog. An example is a project in which an artist or group of artists assembled an unlikely combination of people on a boat to discuss an issue. In that case nothing tangible was produced (other than discussion). In other cases the group may produce an object.
The basis for controversy, then, is apparent. The question would be what makes that sort of project art and a conversation among people in a pub without trained artists present not art.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:21 AM
lewistechno lewistechno is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

I am looking forward to read more details about dialogical art, keep sharing and keep sharing more!
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:55 AM
Packingrobot Packingrobot is offline
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Re: Dialogical art

I am agree with Greg

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