Is it possible to get a hue close to "Mars" Burnt Sienna (PY101)?

[Mythrill]

Hello, everyone. When I was buying my paint tubes (acrylics), I decided *not* to pick up Windsor & Newton's Burnt Sienna. I was happy with Raw Umber.

Boy, do I regret that. Here's the color in question:

The thing is, whenever I try to mix this colors to get this hue, I fail miserably. First, I tried to mix Quinacridone Magenta (PV19, violet version) + Azo Yellow Medium (or Cadmium Yellow Deep (PY35 + PO20), for a more intense mix). I did get a beautiful color... but it was a yellow ochre hue, not a Burnt Sienna Hue! I noticed this has a reddish-orange undertone, so I tried to mix Pyrrole Red Light (PR254) + Ultramarine Blue + Cadmium Yellow Deep. Still, the closest I can get to is a hue similar to ochre Burnt Sienna (brownish-red undertone, instead of red-yellowish)!

So, is there a way to mimic PY101 Burnt Sienna? I appreciate your suggestions.

Edit: here is the burnt sienna hue I can get the closest to.

[Patrick1]

The Burnt Sienna color you want (top swatch) looks to be quite transparent - which gives its color more complexity and 'depth' (color range and saturation).

If you want to match it as close as possible, you'll need to use transparent colors. Your swatch below is much more opaque and noticeably greyer, although you're not too far off in hue.

Could you list which transparent colors you have on hand?

[Journeyman]

Ivory Black and Vermillion will get you pretty close and at a push Ivory Black and Cad Red will do. Neither will be as transparent as Burnt Sienna but will be quick to mix.

Dave

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by Patrick1

The Burnt Sienna color you want (top swatch) looks to be quite transparent - which gives its color more complexity and 'depth' (color range and saturation).

If you want to match it as close as possible, you'll need to use transparent colors. Your swatch below is much more opaque and noticeably greyer, although you're not too far off in hue.

Could you list which transparent colors you have on hand?

Sure!

* Permanent Rose (PV19, "primary magenta" version)
* Quinacridone Magenta (PV19, "true violet" version)
* Phtalo Blue Green Shade (Pb 15:3)
* Ultramarine Blue (Pb 29)
* Azo Yellow Medium (PY74)
* Raw Umber (Pbr6)
* Hooker's Green (Pb15 + PO49)

PV19 (Permanent Rose) + Ultramarine Blue (Pb29) + Azo Yellow Medium (Py74) is the closest I could get to the transparent version of this hue, but it's just dull compared to the original.

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Ivory Black and Vermillion will get you pretty close and at a push Ivory Black and Cad Red will do. Neither will be as transparent as Burnt Sienna but will be quick to mix.

Dave

I have Pyrrole Red (PR254) and Mars Black (PR101), so I tried that. The result is pretty similar in masstone, but it hasn't the orange shift "Mars" Burnt Sienna has. When you start to dilute it, it shifts to something similar to a violet iron oxide. So, I tried to adjust the color with lots of cadmium red deep, to make the PR254 shift a bit more torwards orange. Then, I get the tints with the right shift, and reducing it with white will also give me a flesh color, but the masstone is much lighter than the actual "Mars" Sienna.

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by Patrick1

Your swatch below is much more opaque and noticeably greyer, although you're not too far off in hue.

Oh, forgot to say. That's not my swatch. That's the swatch of the calcinated, opaque version of Burnt Sienna (Pbr7). That one I can easily mix in many ways.

[Patrick1]

Its trial & error...These two are what I would try first, using only transparent colors:

-mix PY74 + PV19(whichever of your PV19s is darker) until you get a red or orange-red hue, then darken by gradually adding small amounts of the approximate complement, PB15:3 until its the right darkness

OR

-red or magenta (the exact hue will be found by experimentation) + a small amount of Hookers Green to darken to the right amount

Youll probably need to tweak a bit; If the result is too greenish, you need a greater proportion of red, if its too reddish or purplish, try more yellow.

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by Patrick1

Its trial & error...These two are what I would try first, using only transparent colors:

-mix PY74 + PV19(whichever of your PV19s is darker) until you get a red or orange-red hue, then darken by gradually adding small amounts of the approximate complement, PB15:3 until its the right darkness

OR

-red or magenta (the exact hue will be found by experimentation) + a small amount of Hookers Green to darken to the right amount

Youll probably need to tweak a bit; If the result is too greenish, you need a greater proportion of red, if its too reddish or purplish, try more yellow.

Patrick, mixing Quinacridone Magenta (which is the dark version of PV19) with PY74 will give me a warm brown straight out of the tube. If I tweak it torwards PV19, I get a "carmine" color. Adding a small amount of Phtalo Blue GS will shift it torwards green quickly, and if I add more, it makes a perfect, transparent black.

[Mythrill]

Here are the results with PV19 (light and dark), PR254 and Hooker's Green.

* PV19 (light violet) + Hooker's Green = a very dull violet (looks a bit like mud).
* PV19 (dark violet) + Hooker's Green = perfect complement (transparent black).
* PR254 + Hooker's Green = Brownish red, similar to Pbr7 again...

I suppose one easy way to get a hue close to "Mars" Sienna could be to mix Cadmium Orange (or Pyrrole Orange, which is stronger and transparent) and Mars Black. But if that is the case, I might as well just buy a tube of "Mars" Sienna.

[Patrick1]

Originally Posted by Mythrill

Patrick, mixing Quinacridone Magenta (which is the dark version of PV19) with PY74 will give me a warm brown straight out of the tube.

This mix sounds the most promising. In what ways is it off from the target color you want? (hue, chroma, value in both masstone and undertone) Have you tried tinting it with white?

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by Patrick1

This mix sounds the most promising. In what ways is it off from the target color you want? (hue, chroma, value in both masstone and undertone) Have you tried tinting it with white?

Masstone: very close to "Mars" Sienna.

Tints: When diluted, it has a gray pink undertone – not orange-red.

Reducing it to white: After the color shifts, it shows an even more obvious desaturated pink, very different from the orange "Mars" Sienna shows.

[sidbledsoe]

kevin macpherson shows how to do this in one of his books, his palette is aliz crimson, cad yellow, ultramarine blue. first mix up a nice reddish orange then add blue to that pile to get to a burnt sienna "hue"
i used napthol red, hansa yellow, and ultramarine blue to mix this one on the right vs a PR101 burnt sienna on the left:

but it will never be exactly the same.

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by sidbledsoe

kevin macpherson shows how to do this in one of his books, his palette is aliz crimson, cad yellow, ultramarine blue. first mix up a nice reddish orange then add blue to that pile to get to a burnt sienna "hue"
i used napthol red, hansa yellow, and ultramarine blue to mix this one on the right vs a PR101 burnt sienna on the left:

but it will never be exactly the same.

Yeah... the masstone seems right, but dues it goes orange-red too when diluted? I remembered that I have some naphtol red paint here, though it's not pure (it's PR112 + PR22 + PW6), so I mixed that + Azo Yellow Medium + French Ultramarine. What I first got was a raw umber hue. Adding more French Ultramarine makes it close to the hue of "Mars Sienna", but I still get the pink undertone. Changing the yellow to Cadmium Yellow Deep (PY35 + PO20) will create a warmer masstone, but the undertone is still red, not orange-yellow. It's only a bit more saturated.

[Mythrill]

By the way Sid, are you sure your PR101 is actually Burnt Sienna (Mars Orange)?

In my country there's a company, Corfix, that sells two oil tubes: Burnt Sienna (PR101) and Red Iron Oxide (PR101).

It turns out that their "Burnt Sienna" is very opaque, has a strong red undertone and doesn't shift a lot in undertone (always reddish). On the other hand, their Red Iron Oxide is very similar to Windsor & Newton's: despite having a red hue when "wet", it goes brown when it oxidizes, and the undertones shift to brown, then orange, then red-orange. It's also transparent, so the tubes are swapped in Corfix: Red Iron Oxide is actually Burnt Sienna, and Burnt Sienna is Red Iron Oxide!

So, summing it up, by using that Naphtol Mix + Cadmium Yellow Deep + French Ultramarine = Red Iron Oxide Hue for me: the undertone is always red, and just as saturated as Red Iron Oxide.

What is the result when you mix your hue with white? Does it get yellow-orange or pinkish?

Update: I got some of my oils and mixed with the ones you suggested. Ultramarine Blue + Naphtol Red (PR112) + Cadmium Red (Medium?), and much to my surprise, the result is very similar to "Mars Sienna." I even got a hue shift to an orange-ish red! It was only when I mixed it with white that I got a very pink red – but except when adding white, the hue looks so similar I could easily tweak it adding yellow if I wanted to add white. I don't know why I simply can't get the same hue, undertone and shift using my acrylic paint.

[Gigalot]

Folks, why do you mix an orange burnt sienna color with a lot of paints (blue, magenta, green)?
First, we need 1 good transparent orange and 1 good transparent black. I guess, Perinone Orange PO43 + Gas Black (Lamp Black). Mix them first and then try to correct resulting hue with other translucent paints if necessary!

I have PO13 tube only (not lightfast and enough translucent) but it looks very close to my Burnt Sienna mixed with finest particle size carbon black.