Question about procedure

BevL · #1 04-25-2003, 10:29 AM

In the painting I am now working on 'vinegar and onions', I toned the canvas with a raw sienna thinned down with linseed oil. I am using water mixable paints, and used the linseed that came with the set. I didnt wait for it to dry before beginning the painting (which was probably not a good thing), and although it didnt seem to affect the painting of the still life items, it may have affected the background. When applying the background colour, it seems all blotchy. Waiting another day for a second coat produced the same results.. which to me resembles the appearance of suede, when you run your fingers over it.. changing the 'nap' of the fibres. I assume that waiting until the background is dry will allow me to proceed with another layer which wont do this, but my real question is- how should I be toning a canvas with for water mixable paint? Would a wash of acrylic have been a better choice?
All my other oil paintings I just painted directly on the canvas, so didnt have this problem. Also, how much difference does toning a canvas really make in the end result, if it is all covered over with paint anyway?

Apologies for my very basic questions.. just trying to understand how oils work, and why.

Bev

G.L. Hoff · #2 04-25-2003, 10:47 AM

Hi--

I'm not sure what you mean by "blotchy"--do you mean that the paint film isn't the same thickness everywhere you put it down? Or did the paint bead up? It would help to see what you're describing. Generally, you're right that the imprimatura should be dry, but some people do paint right on a new one, incorporating that paint into the picture.

If the paint is drawing apart or beading, you may be using too much oil--in that case, try cutting down to less than 10% of your total paint volume. In some cases when paint beads up, the underlayer is too slick to accept the paint--some painters add a resin at that point--but that doesn't sound like what you're describing.

Dunno if that helps or not....

loop · #3 04-25-2003, 11:01 AM

hmmm not sure I don't use water mixable oils, I did not even know you could use them with linseed oil, I would think you would have to really limit the amount of oil you are mixing with your water-oils,

but I think the point of the imprimatura (toneed canvas) is NOT to affect the final stage, but to act as a mid tone so when you BEGIN painting, you can add light and dark tone using the imprimatura as your mid-values thereby making it easier for "some" artists to start..

a big ol' WHITE canvas can be scarey

BevL · #4 04-25-2003, 11:13 AM

Thanks for your replies. GL,no, the paint is not beading up. When I tried to paint the background colour over the toning, that went on okay, but the next layer seemed to just move around, the brushstrokes were showing not as strokes of paint, but as if I had no paint on the brush, and was simply brushing on suede.. in other words, the light hit every stroke depending on the direction, and caused each stroke to glare, rather than show a change in paint colour. I know this isnt a clear description...

Maybe you can see what I mean in this image. Those streaks of light are not lighter paint, they are showing up from my brushstrokes catching the light, as I tried a large brush to smooth over the background.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...93#post1154793

I just touched my painting and the layer now feels dry to the touch, so I'll try to add a layer and see it if reacts the same. I just wanted to know if I should indeed be toning this way.

Loop, that makes perfect sense about the reason for toning. Thankyou. This linseed oil came with the set of water mixables, and it says 'water mixable linseed' on the label. Personally, white canvases dont scare me.

I just thought there was a reason that I had to tone first, I just didnt know why.

I'll try another coat and see what happens.

Bev

loop · #5 04-25-2003, 12:16 PM

ahhhhhhh I understand completely your issue as I have had it myself I think that since yours is completely dry now the issue will go away (it did for me).

I think it has to do with the way oils work (I'm going out on a limb here this is like the blind leading the blind) and that if you have a thinned (wet) layer of paint down it is fairly hard to paint OVER that while it is wet , unless( I think) you use thinner paint over it. now I am talking consistancy here not fat over lean oil content

I think it is hard to put thick over thin (while wet) I would LOVE to see the corret answer to this, since it is happening to me as well

BevL · #6 04-25-2003, 12:22 PM

You were right Loop. I was trying to put thick paint over a thin wet layer. I just put another coat on and it worked beautifully now that the background was dry enough!

The painting is looking much better now with a richer colour background... that is.. if you can call khaki a rich colour. lol. You know what I mean.. solid looking, rather than transparent. Now to refine the still life objects!

Bev

G.L. Hoff · #7 04-25-2003, 01:06 PM

Quote:

I think it is hard to put thick over thin (while wet) I would LOVE to see the corret answer to this, since it is happening to me as well

A number of painters use a touch of resin at that stage. It's easier just to wait until it's dry, but if you must put a thicker layer over a thin, wet one, then something like Canada balsam works pretty well...I don't use dammar or mastic so I can't comment about those. And I'd say give it a test run on a piece of scrap and see if it works for you before trying it in an important work.

loop · #8 04-25-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G.L. Hoff
[b]

A number of painters use a touch of resin at that stage. It's easier just to wait until it's dry, but if you must put a thicker layer over a thin, wet one, then something like Canada balsam works pretty well...I don't use dammar or mastic so I can't comment about those. And I'd say give it a test run on a piece of scrap and see if it works for you before trying it in an important work.

would you use the resin in the new to be laid in thick paint over the thin or would that have to already be in the thin wet paint that i am trying to cover ..or both

G.L. Hoff · #9 04-25-2003, 02:04 PM

You'd add the resin to the new layer, supposedly to improve adhesion. I don't do this myself because I don't paint alla prima any more, but that's the theory.

Luis Guerreiro · #10 04-25-2003, 07:07 PM

Just a few comments.

That "suede" effect is called "dychroism" (sorry, I am not sure it is spelled correctly), but this is the effect often associated with Alkali Refined Linseed Oil (ARLO).

I use A Ref Linseed Oil and I have seen this happening every time I paint with ARLO. When dry, it disappears and the paint film becomes 1/2 matt, at least in my experience.

As for the IMPRIMATURA; the natural thinner for traditional oils is turpentine. So the imprimatura is made by doing a wash of oil colour well diluted in turps, wait to dry a good 10 minutes and then clean the excess to the desired point.

With water miscible oils, the natural thinner is WATER, not oil. The procedure is exactly the same.

Luis

G.L. Hoff · #11 04-25-2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

With water miscible oils, the natural thinner is WATER, not oil. The procedure is exactly the same.

Luis

It's "dichroism,"I think.

You can certainly thin water miscibles with water (I have done in years past myself) but thinning them with turp probably would give a more secure, if scanty, paint film when one does the imprimatura. I've done it that way, too, and I prefer the turp diluted way, which seems more brilliant to my eye. Who knows, maybe it's only a matter of taste, after all, or what one's trying to achieve.

BevL · #12 04-25-2003, 09:56 PM

Thankyou Luis and G.L for your replies. This helps me a lot. Now I can try both turps and water and see which works better for me. I really didnt know I could use turps with water mixables, and I was afraid thinning with too much water wouldnt be good. I'm learning so much in my short time using oils!

Bev

plnelson · #13 01-21-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BevL

In the painting I am now working on 'vinegar and onions', I toned the canvas with a raw sienna thinned down with linseed oil.

I'm new to WetCanvas but I'm surprised at the number of times I've seen people refer to "thinning" their paint with oil. Adding oil doesn't thin paint; it fattens it. So as others here have already pointed out she was painting lean-over-fat, which is a no-no.

Oil paint is thinned with a solvent. Traditional oils use an organic solvent and water-miscibles use water.

BTW, someone here expressed concern about water-thinned oils leaving a weaker film for the imprimatura and suggested using an organic solvent instead. Since both solvents evaporate during the drying process, why would one leave a weaker film than the other?

IMO the film strength would be a function of how MUCH solvent you use - the higher the ratio of solvent the less oil left to form a film. On that basis the water miscibles should produce a stronger film because it takes so little water to make a thin wash with them. I use an eyedropper to add water to the oil-miscibles and most of the time I only use one drop for a short "worm" of paint, two for a longer one.

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