WIP Shadows and other problems

[BJ3]

Hi everyone – have been working hard trying to get the idea of values into my head. Started this monotone (again!) from a photo in the IRLby sheilsoft.

My problem (the biggest one I can see) is the shadow of theblock is just not right. Before I go to all the work of putting the grasses in front of the block, I need to get the shadow right. Help, please. Also, I think the trees in the background are too large, too dark and they sort of scream out- right? Again, just because it’s there. . . . etc., etc.!!!
I did a value scale for Sepia and am trying to get all 9 values into this painting.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

[virgil carter]

A, good work so far. As to shadows, they are dark (darker than the shaded surfaces), but no darker than about a 6-7 on a 9 scale.

They should also be transparent, and if there is intense lighting (thus a 6-7 value), you can consider some vertical and/or horizontal reflection of light at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal planes. Finally it usually helps to have the shadows less intenst and some lost or soft edges at they become most distant from the object casting the shadow.

To achieve this and fix your shadow, all you need do is to dampen and lift a few areas on your current shadow and... Viola!

Sling shadows!
Virgil

[karenlee]

For purposes of this discussion, I want to distiguish here between shadow, the dark area cast on the ground by the lighted object, and shade, the dark side of an object. The dark side of the block should not be the same value as its shadow. The best way to demonstrate the difference is by taking any old white box and casting a light on its top; you can see the difference in value between the shaded side of the box and the shadow of the box. Sometimes this stuff does not show up well in photos, which tend to darken all dark areas equally.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to complicate matters even more, values read differently in shaded areas than they do in light. Johannes Vloothuis posted this demonstration, and it is priceless:

In the picture to the left, squares A and B are the same shade, but its hard to believe, isn't it?

In the image to the right, connecting squares A and B with parallel lines of the same shade, you can see A and B are the same!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[virgil carter]

K, an important point you make. In strong illumination, shade is usually a medium value, while shadow is usually a dark value. Both, however, are transparent, and both may benefit from reflections.

And as a colorist, it's incumbent to point out that the hue of both shade and shadows is determined by the ambient light color and the color of the objects themselves. There's never a gray or black, much less an opaque, shade or shadow!

In weak light and in atmospheric conditions, shade and shadow are reduced accordingly.

Sling it!
Virgil

[BJ3]

Virgil – thank you for your help; I have done as you suggested, and lightened the shadow cast by the block so that it is not so dark and it now has some texture to it. With all the grass in front of the shadow, it’s hard to see that hard line and I didn’t want to fuss too much.
Who said shadows were hard? Vertical reflections, horizontal reflections, intersections of the vertical & horizontal planes – strong illumination, weak light, atmospheric conditions – yikes, my poor brain!
Seriously, thanks for all the great advice and I’ll be posting the finished piece tomorrow.

Karen – thanks again for more sound advice.
I think now I understand– shade and shadow being two different things. The difference being that a shadow is cast, while part of the thing that is casting the shadow is in shade.
What you said about a photo is spot on. The one I have been working from shows the shadow as pure black and the shaded part of the block as not much lighter.
Cheers and thanks alot!

[kate252]

i think if i may put a spanner in- that you can see values really clearly if you look at an object from life. in a photo- all you can see is tiny shapes and a collections of pixels in different colors-
if you get a block and put it in the light- you will see better values.
if you put a hole in some card- you can see the varying shades really clearly.

this is the same thing i am doing with my still life plums.

it would be good to see the reference photo?

[BJ3]

Hi Karen, Hi Virgil – here’s my ref photo – many thanks to “sheilsoft” and his excellent photo from WC’s IRL.


And, here’s what I think might be my finished piece. Title?? “Who Has Seen The Wind?” With recognition to WO. Mitchell.

I think that I should have done all the foreground grass, and then done the shadow – is that the right way to do that?
And, I’m sorry I did all that scratching to try and make the look of the long grass over the shadow. I resorted to Yorky’s suggestion to use a white gel pen for the light tops of the grass ‘cause I couldn’t figure out how to do that.
I don’t know if there’s anything else I can do to improve on the shadow (I’m still not happy with it) without messing the whole thing up beyond repair. My hubby likes it so much, I think I’ll use the same ref photo and, using all I’ve learned, make him a book mark as a gift.
Again, I thank both of you so very much for being my “virtual art teachers” as I stumble bumble my way along.
Cheers – here’s to being shape makers!

[kate252]

ah- i see youve done well with that photo. its a nice one isnt it.

i think its difficult to see values and not get side tracked by all of that grass texture- its very andrew wyeth-like! its made a nice painting i think

[virgil carter]

Alana, a fine job, IMO! Congratulations. I think you have the values and sense of light/reflections in a belivable and painterly manner.

Karen's and Kate's points were very helpful in understanding shade and shadows.

The only suggestion I'd offer for your next similar painting is that shadows in soft and irregular areas, such as long grasses, etc., tend to be somewhat irregular along their edges since the uneven foliages obscures part of the shadow.

FWIW, I tend to place shadows toward the end of a painting since: 1) they are always dark values in strong illumination; 2) they should be transparent and show the effects of the color of the ambient light and the materials on which they fall.

But, whatever works is the goal! Well done!
Sling paint!
Virgil

[karenlee]

Well that's quite an improvement!!!
A nice real-life exercise for values is a little bowl of eggs* with a good strong light hitting from above at about 10:00. After painting is finished, you can make egg salad


*hard-boiled

[BJ3]

Thank you Virgil, for your laudatory comments – I am quite happy with what I’ve accomplished; and very pleased at how much this little project, it’s only 5 X 7”, has taught me - with all your & Karen’s guidance.

Karen, thank you, thank you, thank you!
Funny thing, I made a batch of hard cooked eggs just this morning! So, quick like a spring chicken, before they get eaten, I’ll attempt an egg still life!

Hi Kate – how are the plums coming along? I was reminded very much of Andrew Wyeth when I saw that photo in the IRL. I could never, ever hope to paint like that, nor would I ever actually want to, although his work is amazing to see.

Cheers – and here’s to being shape makers or shape shifters, whatever!

[karenlee]

Alana--
Just think--You're only one egg yolk away from an Andrew Wyeth style egg tempera painting!
[I could not resist]
Karen

[blissofsilver]

Originally Posted by karenlee

For purposes of this discussion, I want to distiguish here between shadow, the dark area cast on the ground by the lighted object, and shade, the dark side of an object. The dark side of the block should not be the same value as its shadow. The best way to demonstrate the difference is by taking any old white box and casting a light on its top; you can see the difference in value between the shaded side of the box and the shadow of the box. Sometimes this stuff does not show up well in photos, which tend to darken all dark areas equally.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to complicate matters even more, values read differently in shaded areas than they do in light. Johannes Vloothuis posted this demonstration, and it is priceless:

In the picture to the left, squares A and B are the same shade, but its hard to believe, isn't it?

In the image to the right, connecting squares A and B with parallel lines of the same shade, you can see A and B are the same!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This picture boggles my mind. I was in disbelief till I put two paper on the screen to isolate the a and b blocks.