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Old 06-16-2019, 12:23 AM
joesurfer joesurfer is offline
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Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I normally ONLY do watercolor landscapes/ seascapes. Some portraits. I just bought some Daley Romney sketch set with charcoal and some "U-create" mixed media paper from walmart. between 70 to 90 pound. This is My first sketch ever with charcoal (medium softness) (as far as I can remember). I used a gum eraser came in set but I could not barely erase this charcoal and It barely smudged at all. That's why I got it to try my hand at it because I'm to lazy to use pencil. This is my first ever sketch with it. About a 20 minute freehand sketch of my surfer friend Moondoggy. How come it does not smudge or erase? I only use pencil for quick outline for watercolors. What did I do/ buy wrong? I need to be able to smudge it and erase it. Please help this Noob. Point me in the right direction.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:51 AM
joesurfer joesurfer is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I think Figured it out. I think to be able to blend it, I need to use softer charcoal. I also found that the choices to buy paper are very wide. I think like a watercolorist so It amaze's me there is not more 100% cotton paper to use for charcoal drawings. If I buy some better paper, I plan to make it and charcoal my go to, everyday sketch medium that I take with me when I go out. To many choices. What paper do you suggest?
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:37 AM
joe1It joe1It is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

beautiful. I am a beginner so you will be able to say much better.

I wanted to tell you though that I find the charcoal pencil difficult to erase,
I have another brand but I think it's the same, medium and soft.

It is also very difficult for me to cancel,
graphite pencils are easily removed, maybe if you don't mold too much it is easier,
It is difficult for me to use a charcoal pencil, even if I have been treading a little, light strokes may help and perhaps it also depends on paper, but I think it is quite difficult to remove.
I'm talking about charcoal pencils.
in a drawing set I found 2 charcoal sticks, I tried them a little but in effect they are easily erased and faded out
charcoal sticks, vine charcoal should be deleted easily

perhaps we can (and I wonder the same things) make a sketch with these stiks (grapevine or willow seems to be the name) (or with pencils) and then use charcoal pencil?
I wanted to tell you that it can also depend on the paper, but in fact you say that, on the fading I think it's like you say, soft charcoal and maybe use more, more layers (I realized that with little I didn't fade it and that maybe I should use it more and more )
*but in fact you were asking for paper, sorry
I do not know on the suitable paper, I have read that many use paper for watercolors.
I don't know however the marks , model that I was looking for newspaper paper to start practicing it (and if I learned I wanted) but I didn't find it easily so I never bought something specific or tried to preserve some charcoal drawing well over time.

(one thing, I didn't try but to keep it if I understood correctly, it needs a suitable paper but also a fixative spray in the sense that coal is probably even less stable than graphite,).
have a nice Sunday
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Old 06-16-2019, 01:35 PM
joesurfer joesurfer is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I was thinking I want to use paper that is good enough quality to sell if I want too. With watercolor you can only use the best 100% cotton paper. I tried some soft Daler Romney charcoal on arches 140# cold press and it does not erase lines at all. Plus that stuff is like $6.00 a sheet. I want to use one paper that i use all the time so Im use to it. I plan to expand my watercolor business to doing charcoal portraits of people I meet on the street.(I am a street watercolor artist). I am going to have to do them fast and on the fly and dead on. I just don't think strathmore 300 or 400 charcoal paper is suitable for selling so I don't want to buy any. Maybe I am thinking to much like watercolor artist and I am wrong. Stratmore 500 series is only one I found thats 100% cotton but it's on 65#. People like heavy quality paper. I seen a guy on you tube (Zin Lim) doing charcoal portraits and he just wipes the charcoal off with his finger and get white paper under it every time. He says he is using "strathmore 400 drawing medium" whatever that is. 400 series is a student grade paper. I wonder if he is just using really soft charcoal. I just don't want to learn on paper I can't sell. You can't do that in watercolor. Not ethical or practical. I might get some of those vines and try them out today. I hope they are soft. I have to be able to do these portraits fast and Charcoal is a LOT easier than watercolor because you don't have to plan so much ahead of time. When I said smudge in my post above, I should have said "blend". thats what I meant. I got my words crossed. Thank you for your replys. I appreciate it a lot.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:38 AM
joe1It joe1It is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

Hello, I apologize for not too precise information.
It was understood that you were talking about shading, blend,
I had tried with tortillon and with stump,
with tortillon I could not fade, but I was scratching as they explained on the forum because I was using little coal.
Stump instead I could use it more easily to fade, without scratching a sheet, I'm not saying it's better but I think I will do less damage.
Still on the blend I read a totorial, a class on the site that spoke of blends with an ear stick.
But I read that they can use a bit of everything so it doesn't matter so much the vehicle (personally I am only afraid to use my finger because I already mess a lot and then in the summer my hands sweat me too much I fear).
On paper

I think it's just what you say, the cards can be very different so using a single card is even better on the importance of quality.
On paper I had read while looking for stratmore but I had not tried it for convenience in finding it in Europe () but I would like to try some models because many artists that I admire on the forum I think they use or used just that cards, strathmore 400 or sthratmore 500 smooth, smooth bristol but I talk about pencil drawings (as my last album I took I bought a smooth bristol album but another brand, it seems very good indeed but for the next time maybe I look for the original, the smooth but it's strange with coal but I have to try it again).

However, I tried to look for some charcoal cards maybe strathmore and I get a specific card that seems to speak very well.

**Strathmore Paper 500 Series Charcoal Pad, 18 "x24", White, 24 Sheets

On the arches, google indicated me writing better arches for charcoal designs I'm reading this type that looks great, 100% cotton, ARCHES® 88, smooth
, maybe it's the most expensive card so maybe you have to feel to understand which cards to try who knows the drawing well and loves the medium of charcoal (which is actually an incredible medium), maybe to reduce the circle on which to find the most suitable paper ( and maybe even more easily available) for what is the purpose


It would be good if not a free sample also to be able to try a single sheet for a couple of types or more, some types of paper that intrigue you, to have at least 1 or a few sheets as a first purchase since once you choose the paper you will supply yourself.
I don't think I was very helpful, but I am writing this article that was helping me to get a first idea on a subject that I find very complex (and I also ignored all the differences on the cards), it's a very nice article by Sparrow
*http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show....php?t=1434882

Last thing besides the watercolor paper I had forgotten to tell you that even paper that might sell like pastel paper might be ok.
A year and a half ago to buy my best album and just to try practicing charcoal drawing at the end I bought a card indicated as pastel paper.
mi teintes canson (earth color) colorful album, 5 colors but also sell it loose I think.
It is paper called crayon paper, it should be specific for crayons but from some drawings I have seen it is also used for charcoal and fine (in fact crayon paper should be a possibility and compared to the economic paper I was struck by how it was deleted)
nice thing and that has 2 sides, one has bee plots and another smooth, I liked the smooth one,
I took a4 format, I think I had to choose a3, I saw these 2 formats.
Regarding the colors, there are 50 shades so this gives a lot of choice but I think it would be practical as I think you will always want to use a single white or similar color.
On the site there was written 50% cotton but in my album there is 30%.
160 g / m˛ thickness.

Searching on their site there is also this card which should be a higher version and speaks directly of charcoal
I paste the features of Canson® Mi-Teintes® Touch
*Weight or thickness
350 g / m˛, Colors and finishes, 11 colors available (sand colors says? Maybe the colors I give), Recommended techniques
Ideal for: Pastel, charcoal, colored pencils
Also suitable for: melted and sanguine Formati
Sheet: 50 x 65 cm,
Block 1 side: 24 x 32 cm and 29.7 x 42 cm, I could not find the price.

And all, I hope I have said something useful and that they will be able to show you some suitable papers and that with the new carbon brushes you said you will be fine
A greeting
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:26 AM
marksmomagain marksmomagain is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I use Stonehenge 90lb. Printmaking/Drawing & HP 140lb. Aqua, Canson's Moulin duRoy HP 300lb., and Arches HP 300lb. for probably 90% of my drawings. Can you get these where you are?
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Old 06-17-2019, 09:58 PM
joesurfer joesurfer is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I tried some charcoal on arches 140# Cold Press watercolor paper and it was impossible to erase. I now have some strathmore 400 drawing paper 11" x 14".
I was really easy to lift charcoal from it and it blended nicely. I also tried blending on the Ucreate multi media paper I used for the the first sketch above with paper towel and it worked good. When I first did that drawing I was trying to blend with my finger and it did not work. This thread was the result...
Below you will see the original drawing after some blending and a second attempt at lifting. The second drawing that that I did today below (My neighbor was model) is on the strathmore drawing 400 series 80# was really easy to lift and blend. I put some watercolor as a Base. Both sketchs sold already so someone liked them. The first drawing below is not that yellow in real life.

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Old 06-18-2019, 12:37 AM
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janinco janinco is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I like hot press watercolor paper because I can do a watercolor wash to tone it and then work in charcoal (and graphite) over that. I only use SpectraFix for a fixative since it can be used indoors and is non-toxic. It works very well.

For charcoal I often use willow for layout and then General's soft and medium charcoal pencils or Nitram charcoal which can be sharpened to a point. I don't care for harder charcoal pencils or compressed charcoal. If you search for David Kassan, he has a few videos where he starts with PanPastels to do the layout (they can be erased easily with vinyl erasers).

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Old 06-18-2019, 07:30 AM
joesurfer joesurfer is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

Janinco: That was the perfect answer and materials I can relate too. You hiy the nail right on it's head. It makes me cringe to to work on anything not 100% cotton. If you see this again or anyone else, I would like to know what you do with your charcoal drawings when you don't want to put fixative on it yet and you cant leave it just taking up space on one of your easels cause you got other more serious work to do? I cant even close them up in sketchbook because the charcoal come off on other page. I live in my studio and im limited on space. What do you guys do with charcoal WIP when not in use?
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:08 AM
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

I bought a large pad of tracing paper and keep WIPs of graphite or charcoal tucked in that. I've also taped disposable silicone baking sheets over a WIP if it was taped to a board. You can buy it like waxed paper.

I forgot to mention that I really like rice paper tortillions for blending since they're a bit softer than regular paper. I get them from China...you can clean them easily by gently turning in a kneaded eraser.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3pcs-Durabl...item2159297d4b

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Old 06-18-2019, 08:08 AM
tiago.dagostini tiago.dagostini is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

Quote:
Originally Posted by joesurfer
I normally ONLY do watercolor landscapes/ seascapes. Some portraits. I just bought some Daley Romney sketch set with charcoal and some "U-create" mixed media paper from walmart. between 70 to 90 pound. This is My first sketch ever with charcoal (medium softness) (as far as I can remember). I used a gum eraser came in set but I could not barely erase this charcoal and It barely smudged at all. That's why I got it to try my hand at it because I'm to lazy to use pencil. This is my first ever sketch with it. About a 20 minute freehand sketch of my surfer friend Moondoggy. How come it does not smudge or erase? I only use pencil for quick outline for watercolors. What did I do/ buy wrong? I need to be able to smudge it and erase it. Please help this Noob. Point me in the right direction.




Compressed charcoal is a completely different beast from vine charcoal. Compressed charcoal sticks tot he paper and it is hard to erase completely . Do not press at the paper.. no not do nto press much... I mean do not make rpessure at ALL.. any pressure will make the adhesive in the compressed charcoal stick to the paper.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:40 AM
joe1It joe1It is offline
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Re: Noob= what Paper and Charcoal? Moondoggy

joesurfer, I like the drawings you posted, very nice the mix, the technique used in the second.
I'm glad you solved it.

marksmomagain, janinco, tiago.dagostini
I also thank you for your valuable information
Janico, I am seeing some excerpts from David Kassan's videos, his work is fantastic and the medium used is interesting.

Hello everybody
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